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Subject: Cantrip effects... rss

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Ian Toltz
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There was a discussion on the Humanity's shadow forum about cantrips. The term wasn't used correctly in that discussion, but it did get me thinking... I'm a little surprised there aren't more cantrips in ANR already. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Green Level Clearance.

For those who don't know, a Cantrip is a card which does a small effect for a small cost, and then has you draw a card.

Here are a couple ideas I think could work for cantrips in ANR.

Rockstar Development Gig
Criminal Event - Job - 0 Cost
Gain 1 credit for every Job card in your Trash. Draw a card.

Agile Prep
Shaper Event - Mod - 1 Cost
Choose an icebreaker. That icebreaker gets +3 strength during your next run this turn. Draw a card.

Slash & Burn
Anarch Event - 2 Cost
Remove all virus counters hosted on a program of your choice. For each virus counter removed, the corp trashes a card from R&D. Draw a card.

Crowdsource
NBN Operation - 0 Cost
Trace X. X is the number of resources in the runner's rig. If the trace is successful, give the runner a tag. Draw a card.

Babel
Haas-Bioroid Operation - 0 Cost
Install a piece of ice, ignoring all costs. Draw a card.

Grease the Wheels
Weyland Operation - X cost
X may not be greater than 3. Place X advancement counters on an installed ice. Draw a card.

Foresight
Jinteki Operation - 1 Cost
Look at the top card of R&D. Place it on either the top or the bottom of R&D. Repeat this process two more times. Draw a card.
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If the crux of a 'cantrip' is self replacement, then there are three effects so far:

Diesel

Green Level Clearance
Anonymous Tip

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James W
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Do Anonymous Tip and Diesel count as Cantrips?
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David Kempe-Cook
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kingjames01 wrote:
Do Anonymous Tip and Diesel count as Cantrips?


If the definition we're using is "small effect for a small cost then draw a card," then no. Draw 2 cards is not a small effect.
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Justin
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kingjames01 wrote:
Do Anonymous Tip and Diesel count as Cantrips?

Interesting question, to which I'd quickly vote no. I'd call those pure card draw, not "something minor + replacing itself."

It seems to me that the something minor would have to be something other than drawing cards (e.g. Ancestral Recall isn't a cantrip).
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sydwys8 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Do Anonymous Tip and Diesel count as Cantrips?


If the definition we're using is "small effect for a small cost then draw a card," then no. Draw 2 cards is not a small effect.


If it's not a small effect, what is it? A large effect?
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sydwys8 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Do Anonymous Tip and Diesel count as Cantrips?


If the definition we're using is "small effect for a small cost then draw a card," then no. Draw 2 cards is not a small effect.


Well, Green Level Clearance is the following:

Play a card to draw one card and 3 credits (4 if you're Weyland).

Would any of these also qualify as a Cantrip then?

- Play a card to draw two cards and 1 credit (2 if you're Weyland).

- Play a card to draw three cards and 0 credits.
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David Kempe-Cook
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Drawing 3 cards is a really big effect. I could call the hypothetical "draw 2 cards and gain 1 credit" a cantrip because I would qualify draw one card and gain 1 credit as a small effect.

Also, Green Level is really "Draw 1 card and gain 2 credits" unless you want to call Hedge Fund "Gain 9 credits."
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Ian Toltz
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GLC is definitely a cantrip.

Cards that just draw cards aren't cantrips... One of the qualities of a cantrip is that the card draw is sort of tangential to the main effect (although it can certainly be syngergistic with the main effect, as in my Foresight example).

The term cantrip comes from Magic and, before that, from fantasy in general. Cantrips are very minor spells. In Magic, a cantrip is a spell that's so small it would be wasted if you had to use an entire card for it. See for example Counsel of the Soratami, which is the most basic card drawing spell you could have. I don't think anyone would consider that a cantrip.
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Asmor wrote:
There was a discussion on the Humanity's shadow forum about cantrips. The term wasn't used correctly in that discussion, but it did get me thinking... I'm a little surprised there aren't more cantrips in ANR already. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Green Level Clearance.

For those who don't know, a Cantrip is a card which does a small effect for a small cost, and then has you draw a card.


There are 2 competing definitions of Cantrips. This one is used by MTG players. D&D has a completely different definition (due largely to the fact that drawing cards is meaningless in D&D).

Ultimately, I can't consider any card in Netrunner to be a cantrip unless it gives you a a Click.
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James W
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sydwys8 wrote:
Drawing 3 cards is a really big effect. I could call the hypothetical "draw 2 cards and gain 1 credit" a cantrip because I would qualify draw one card and gain 1 credit as a small effect.

Also, Green Level is really "Draw 1 card and gain 2 credits" unless you want to call Hedge Fund "Gain 9 credits."


Ah you're right! I keep forgetting that GLC costs 1 credit to play.

It's always interesting to learn new terminology.
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Ian Toltz
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etherial wrote:
Asmor wrote:
There was a discussion on the Humanity's shadow forum about cantrips. The term wasn't used correctly in that discussion, but it did get me thinking... I'm a little surprised there aren't more cantrips in ANR already. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Green Level Clearance.

For those who don't know, a Cantrip is a card which does a small effect for a small cost, and then has you draw a card.


There are 2 competing definitions of Cantrips. This one is used by MTG players. D&D has a completely different definition (due largely to the fact that drawing cards is meaningless in D&D).

Ultimately, I can't consider any card in Netrunner to be a cantrip unless it gives you a a Click.


You're definitely right about the click. That's a crucial difference from other games, where you're rarely limited in how many cards you can play.

As for the D&D thing, D&D uses the traditional (i.e. non-gaming-specific) definition of a cantrip, which is a minor spell. In D&D, the word Cantrip is more of a descriptive term than a mechanically useful one.
 
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To the original topic then.

Why aren't we seeing a lot of 'cantrip' cards?
Because drawing a card costs a click, and clicks are a limited resource in the game.

I view click/credit/draw as all being baseline equivalencies.

Clicks can be converted to draws and credits per the baseline rules.

Any other conversion or acceleration beyond the baseline conversion rates requires a card of some kind, either played as an event/operation, or in play.
 
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Trent Hamm
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Here's a card idea for you.

Irrefutable Offer - 6
Event - Criminal
Draw one card.
Gain 8 credits.
Gain 1 click.
3 Faction Points

I'd call that a cantrip. I'd play that in every criminal deck.

 
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David Kempe-Cook
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trenttsd wrote:
Here's a card idea for you.

Irrefutable Offer - 6
Event - Criminal
Draw one card.
Gain 8 credits.
Gain 1 click.
3 Faction Points

I'd call that a cantrip. I'd play that in every criminal deck.



FTFY
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sydwys8 wrote:
trenttsd wrote:
Here's a card idea for you.

Irrefutable Offer - 6
Event - Criminal
Draw one card.
Gain 8 credits.
Gain 1 click.
3 Faction Points

I'd call that a cantrip. I'd play that in every criminal deck.



FTFY


Ehh... 3 inflence is pretty steep, and it's a dead card if you aren't already rich. It might be great in, say, Chaos Theory, who already has a tight 40 card deck, and each of these essentially 'lowers' that by 1 while also giving you 2 creds. But at 3 influence cost, I dunno.
 
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Ony Moose
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Or..
Basically Just Chaos Theory
Shaper
Event: 0
Draw 1 card
Gain 1 click
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Mike Bialecki
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trenttsd wrote:
Here's a card idea for you.

Irrefutable Offer - 6
Event - Criminal
Draw one card.
Gain 8 credits.
Gain 1 click.
3 Faction Points

I'd call that a cantrip. I'd play that in every criminal deck.



Because of the "Click" system, I think we can make some interesting comparisons to Dominion. These cantrips would be similar to any Dominion card that gives an extra action (beyond the default 1 action). Dominion setups with lots of these cards lead to some interesting chaining - action (+something), +action (+something), +action (+something) etc. Some people like these kinds of turns, some people tend to get annoyed by them. I wonder if the ANR designers will ever make something like this possible.
 
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John O'Brien
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etherial wrote:
Ultimately, I can't consider any card in Netrunner to be a cantrip unless it gives you a a Click.


As far as I'm concerned a card AND a click are necessary for a cantrip to totally replace itself. (It's analogous to Dominion in this regard, since you have a limited number of cards AND a limited number of card-playing-actions each turn.)

For instance:
Lucky Penny
Event, Cost 0
Gain 1 [Credit], gain [Click] and draw a card.

As a card, this barely comes out ahead of doing nothing, but that's enough for a cantrip IMHO.
 
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David Kempe-Cook
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Asmor wrote:
There was a discussion on the Humanity's shadow forum about cantrips. The term wasn't used correctly in that discussion, but it did get me thinking... I'm a little surprised there aren't more cantrips in ANR already. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Green Level Clearance.

For those who don't know, a Cantrip is a card which does a small effect for a small cost, and then has you draw a card.

Here are a couple ideas I think could work for cantrips in ANR.

Rockstar Development Gig
Criminal Event - Job - 0 Cost
Gain 1 credit for every Job card in your Trash. Draw a card.

Agile Prep
Shaper Event - Mod - 1 Cost
Choose an icebreaker. That icebreaker gets +3 strength during your next run this turn. Draw a card.

Slash & Burn
Anarch Event - 2 Cost
Remove all virus counters hosted on a program of your choice. For each virus counter removed, the corp trashes a card from R&D. Draw a card.

Crowdsource
NBN Operation - 0 Cost
Trace X. X is the number of resources in the runner's rig. If the trace is successful, give the runner a tag. Draw a card.

Babel
Haas-Bioroid Operation - 0 Cost
Install a piece of ice, ignoring all costs. Draw a card.

Grease the Wheels
Weyland Operation - X cost
X may not be greater than 3. Place X advancement counters on an installed ice. Draw a card.

Foresight
Jinteki Operation - 1 Cost
Look at the top card of R&D. Place it on either the top or the bottom of R&D. Repeat this process two more times. Draw a card.


Of all these cards, the only one I'd be truly not okay with being printed would be Slash and Burn. Imp -> Surge -> S&B -> Run Archives is 5 free accesses, as well as a whole lot of not okay.
 
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Mike Bialecki
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strayjohno wrote:


For instance:
Lucky Penny
Event, Cost 0
Gain 1 [Credit], gain [Click] and draw a card.

As a card, this barely comes out ahead of doing nothing, but that's enough for a cantrip IMHO.


I think it would be quite a bit better than doing nothing. You gain 3 credits and you are effectively running an X-3 size deck (assuming you're running three of them). Heck, even if there was no credit involved, I can see decks that would like the card.

btw...Lucky Penny is a great name for such a card.
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Steven Tu
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I was thinking about another kind of self-replacing - you could replace all of the "draw a card" parts of the effects with "gain [click]" and it would still work out pretty nicely.

In ANR, it feels like a click cantrip is more reliable than a card cantrip.
 
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Anon Y. Mous
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byronczimmer wrote:

I view click/credit/draw as all being baseline equivalencies.

Clicks can be converted to draws and credits per the baseline rules.

Any other conversion or acceleration beyond the baseline conversion rates requires a card of some kind, either played as an event/operation, or in play.


No, no, no, no, no, wrong, completely wrong. If they're equivalent, where's the 0-cost "gain 3 clicks" card?
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Ethereality wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:

I view click/credit/draw as all being baseline equivalencies.

Clicks can be converted to draws and credits per the baseline rules.

Any other conversion or acceleration beyond the baseline conversion rates requires a card of some kind, either played as an event/operation, or in play.


No, no, no, no, no, wrong, completely wrong. If they're equivalent, where's the 0-cost "gain 3 clicks" card?


Clicks can be converted to draws and credits

It is a one way conversion

Going 'backwards' costs more, as we've seen with Biotic Labor (draw/click/4cred = 2 click) or with All-Nighter (draw/click = click later).

So, it is not 'completely wrong'.
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