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Subject: Defense of the Ancients, PvP rss

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Alex Frikium
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Now I know there is interest in playing this game not only as a dungeon crawl game, but also as a PvP game where heroes would be put up against other heroes. I would be one of those people interested in the PvP aspect but feel that it may fall a bit flat and would probably result in a rather short game depending on the heroes chosen, has anyone thought of turning SDE into a D.O.T.A. style game?

If you don't know what DOTA is, then click and read here too many details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients

The basic idea is that 2 sides face off on a map containing 2 bases located on either end. From these bases (spawn points) minions are spawned that more or less walk along a fixed path straight to the enemy's base. If they encounter a foe along the way they will engage it. Without any help, both side's minions butt heads and don't get anywhere... This is where the heroes come in helping their minions close in on the enemy spawning points to destroy them and win the game.

Needless to say a game that already has rules for heroes as wells as spawning points really only needs a little tweaking for use as a DOTA board game.

This is currently un-tested, but from my tinkering so far, this is what I've come up with. Each team consists of 2 heroes and 2 spawn points, and 2 treasure chests so one plays as though they are part hero & part consul. The boards from the game will be arranged as shown below (sorry for the weak figure, I will work on a better one)

Heroes can move anywhere around the board as they normally would. Treasure chests which act to provide an additional spawning skull until destroyed by the opponent), spawning points generate minions to fight for your side and must be protected. Just like in the standard game, spawning points are to be destroyed to win the game.


Spawning and player activation will be very similar to that of the standard game with the following exceptions:

*During each turn opposing players alternate model activations by choosing to either activate 4 skulls worth of minions or 1 hero until all models have been activated.

*Spawning points generate minions which must follow one of two set paths leading to the enemy's base.

*Each team can spawn four skulls worth of minions from each of their spawning points which correspond to a single path leading to the opponent (one spawning point per path). 8 skulls in total per turn for spawning.

*Treasure chests will be used to represent forward towers with a health of 3 and 1 armor point. While active in the game, each chest provides 1 extra spawning skull for the spawning point designated to its path. When destroyed, the attacker may draw a treasure card and the defender can now only spawn 4 skulls worth of minions in the corresponding path for the remainder of the game.

*Bonuses from the treasure chests are effective from the start of the game, allowing each spawn point 5 skulls on the very first turn.

*Destruction of an enemy spawning point marks the end of the game

*Minions cannot retreat. They are meant to always be moving forward towards the enemy (just as in DOTA) and therefore are only ever allowed to move backwards (towards their own base) if there is an enemy no more than 2 spaces behind them. This is to keep players from forming small groups of minions to attack with at once.

*minions must move forward at full speed if no enemies are nearby.

*Each player will have their own marker following the hero's loot tracker, allowing heroes to gain equipment.

*Each player will have their own marker following the consul's skull and bit level tracker, allowing additional skulls and incorporation of a single 16 bit monster once reached on the tracker.

*Upon reaching super, there will be no limit to the number of 16 bit monsters one can have in play at any given time, but no bosses are allowed (yet, work in progress).

*Death of a hero results in the loss of one of his equipment pieces (as chosen by his opponent), and is allowed to respawn during the minion spawning phase of the following turn. Equipment is returned to the deck randomly.

Example Home Tile:


Example Neutral 'middle' tile:


Detailed Game Setup:
1. Select Monsters & Corresponding Spawning Points
- flip a coin / roll some dice / Ro Sham Bo
- winner selects 1st Spawn(s)
- loser selects 2nd & 3rd Spawns
- winner selects 4th Spawn (if not a 2-fer)

2. Select Heroes
- winner selects 1st Hero
- loser selects 2nd & 3rd Heroes
- winner selects 4th Hero
the 1st pick may have difficulty getting their ideal "partner", whereas the loser should always be able to field well-matched pair

3. Create Board
- winner places 1st Tile
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Tile
- winner places 4th Tile and selects Home Tile
- loser selects a non-adjacent Home tile
Other board configurations may be added later, but require at least 2 separate paths between bases

4. Place Spawns (anywhere on their corresponding home tiles)
- winner places 1st Spawn & announces the path its minions will walk
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Spawns & defines a path to each
- winner places 4th Spawn taking the other path

5. Place Hero Starts
- winner places Start on home tile (within 4 of an exit door)
- loser places Start on home tile (within 4 of an exit door)

6. Spawn Monsters
- winner spawns from 1st Spawn point
- loser spawns from 2nd & 3rd
- winner spawns from 4th Spawn

7. Place Heroes
- winner places all of their Heroes
- loser places all of their Heroes

8. Place Treasure (Each team places 1 chest per neutral. It would be advantageous to place it close to your spawning tile)
- winner places 1st Chest
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Chests
- winner places 4th Chest

9. Roll Will to determine which player goes first, as usual.


In building this DOTA variant, I want to acknowledge fellow BGG users for their creativity and ideas in helping form this variant:

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Kael West
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I hope to test this out over the weekend. If you've got any other input or ideas, post that schit! This is a work in progress and I will update this post as I fine tune the rules. Why are my images displaying in so small?
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Kael West
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
This is fantastic idea. Granted, I'm a long-time MOBA player (DOTA 2 primarily), but this seems like a great variation on SDE. You may want to include the "tower" aspect by utilizing spawn points with, say, 6-10 hearts each to give that feeling of accomplishment and progression? And perhaps figure out a way to dole out treasure cards as "end-game" items?

In any case, I really like what you've got going here - be sure to let us know how this plays out!
 
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Alex Frikium
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
mythren wrote:
This is fantastic idea. Granted, I'm a long-time MOBA player (DOTA 2 primarily), but this seems like a great variation on SDE. You may want to include the "tower" aspect by utilizing spawn points with, say, 6-10 hearts each to give that feeling of accomplishment and progression? And perhaps figure out a way to dole out treasure cards as "end-game" items?

In any case, I really like what you've got going here - be sure to let us know how this plays out!


I agree that this form of play needs some sort of early-game goals, but I don't know what I would use in substitution for those defensive towers. As for the loot, it would be handed out throughout the game as damage is done and the marker moves past loot on the loot-meter. I suppose you could have follow up games in which boss loot (the reds) could be carried over. That would give the heroes more incentive to go after a boss, or players to be careful about spawning one. (though I'm not sure how it would play out) 16 bit would be interesting!
 
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Kael West
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
Wassabi wrote:

I agree that this form of play needs some sort of early-game goals, but I don't know what I would use in substitution for those defensive towers. As for the loot, it would be handed out throughout the game as damage is done and the marker moves past loot on the loot-meter. I suppose you could have follow up games in which boss loot (the reds) could be carried over. That would give the heroes more incentive to go after a boss, or players to be careful about spawning one. (though I'm not sure how it would play out) 16 bit would be interesting!


I'm sure that through playing you'll come up with some great ideas. I figured the only replacement for "towers" would be spawn points (and just have all the "minions" spawn at the players "base"). Using Rex as a Roshan/Kongor replacement might be entertaining as well, allowing mid-range heroes a chance at loot? Again, too hard to tell until you've playtested it a bit . Really excited to see how it turns out for you, though!

Oh, and I apologize for throwing so many ideas out - I definitely don't mean to derail or detract from your concept. It's a pretty great one .
 
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
IMO, if there is a Hero on a tile, the player can do whatever he wants with the minions on that tile, including going backward or staying put.

The teleporters should be replaced by treasure chests (one per tile).

Both changes are designed to get the Heroes moving around and doing things.
 
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Alex Frikium
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
GrauGeist wrote:
IMO, if there is a Hero on a tile, the player can do whatever he wants with the minions on that tile, including going backward or staying put.

The teleporters should be replaced by treasure chests (one per tile).

Both changes are designed to get the Heroes moving around and doing things.

mythren wrote:
I'm sure that through playing you'll come up with some great ideas. I figured the only replacement for "towers" would be spawn points (and just have all the "minions" spawn at the players "base"). Using Rex as a Roshan/Kongor replacement might be entertaining as well, allowing mid-range heroes a chance at loot? Again, too hard to tell until you've playtested it a bit . Really excited to see how it turns out for you, though!

Oh, and I apologize for throwing so many ideas out - I definitely don't mean to derail or detract from your concept. It's a pretty great one .


I'm loving the ideas you're coming up with here. I like the tower & 'base' separation concept. As towers are destroyed it could be accounted for as a decrease in the amount of skulls one could spawn on that lane & side. Playing through it will give a better idea as to what works and what feels like a good mechanic.

Don't apologize, keep em coming cool
 
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
@OP - if I were tackling a PvP version, I'd look at something like this (following the basic order):

1. Select Monsters & Minibosses
- flip a coin
- winner selects 1st Spawn(s)
- loser selects 2nd & 3rd Spawns
- winner selects 4th Spawn (if not a 2-fer)
reversing selections versus alternating selection balances "winning" the coin flip - in many cases, it's better to be the "loser" for the back-to-back selections.

2. Select Heroes
- winner selects 1st Hero
- loser selects 2nd & 3rd Heroes
- winner selects 4th Hero
the 1st pick may have difficulty getting their ideal "partner", whereas the loser should always be able to field well-matched pair

3. Create Board
- winner places 1st Tile
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Tile
- winner places 4th Tile and selects Home Tile
- loser selects a non-adjacent Home tile
board could be a line or "L" instead of a square, which favors certain teams and spawns

4. Place Spawns (1 per tile)
- winner places 1st Spawn (on any tile)
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Spawns
- winner places 4th Spawn
- loser selects a Spawn adjacent to their Home tile
- winner gets remaining Spawn
gamesmanship is possible here - one can place the opponents Home Spawn, for example...

5. Place Hero Starts
- winner places Start on home tile (within 4 of a door)
- loser places Start on home tile (within 4 of a door)

6. Spawn Monsters
- winner spawns from 1st Spawn point
- loser spawns from 2nd & 3rd
- winner spawns from 4th Spawn

7. place Heroes
- winner places all of their Heroes
- loser places all of their Heroes

8. place Treasure
- winner places 1st Chest
- loser places 2nd & 3rd Chests
- winner places 4th Chest
Treasure Chest on Home Tile can only be opened by opposing player, can not be a Boo Booty, and will contain 2 Treasures instead of 1.

9. Roll Will to determine which player goes first, as usual.


Rules Changes

Players may activate 1 hero *or* 4 skulls, as above.

Track wounds separately, unlocking miniboss as usual.

Winner is when opponent loses both Heroes.


Difference from DOTA

In my version, each Player is effectively the other player's Consul in a simultaneous 2-Hero game on a 4-tile board, so there's no need to have Minions follow a path - they just get activated as normal.
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Mario S.
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
I was actually thinking of this for a while now but never had time to go in and figure out the details as far as balancing goes but DOTA style PvP is definitely the way for SDE PvP to go, it just makes so much sense.
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Re: PvP, more specifically: DOTA
I suppose the adjacent spawn could be the forward tower, and the other as the home "base", but my version doesn't really need "bases" per se - it's a deathmatch PvP, not some sort of CTF / KOTH game. Once both Heroes are down, it's game over.
 
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Ryan K
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Why do you need to add the complexity of minions and mobs to the game?

What's wrong with a basic team deathmatch, with scattered treasure chests. One of my favorite games is the Final Fantasy Tactics series, and that is nearly exactly what this is. The large movement speeds and ranges on heroes almost require a large map of 4 tiles for some strategy.

I tried this once with 2 tiles and 3 heroes each. It quickly became apparent that with the high armor and health of the heroes the game could easily last for hours. A 2v2 game might be more streamlined, but of course some heroes are just really not balanced for PVP.

Krosmaster does look interesting...
 
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XvX Heroes-only Team deathmatch would be single tile, like Dofus / Wakfu / Krosmaster. But strategy wouldn't be as strong, due to reduce synergy opportunities.
 
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Erik O'Rourke
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love the idea. Here's what I was thinking. at the beginning of every other turn a wave of 2 kobolds knuckleheads, and one flinger spawn on one side, and on the other side 2 bone heads and one dust mage spawn. They would have identical stats to one another. Every fifth wave or so, a larger minion would spawn with them, ironscales and death knights respectively. 2 to 3 "spawn" points as the "towers", with a hard hitting ranged attack, would run along the paths that the minions are spawned from.
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Does anyone play this? Is it good? Has it been updated?
I love Dota and would like to try something like it
 
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Alex Frikium
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torontoraptors wrote:
Does anyone play this? Is it good? Has it been updated?
I love Dota and would like to try something like it
It has not been updated, but was pre-tested a few times before posting. It makes for some good back and forth PvP games.

iGniGhted wrote:
love the idea. Here's what I was thinking. at the beginning of every other turn a wave of 2 kobolds knuckleheads, and one flinger spawn on one side, and on the other side 2 bone heads and one dust mage spawn. They would have identical stats to one another. Every fifth wave or so, a larger minion would spawn with them, ironscales and death knights respectively. 2 to 3 "spawn" points as the "towers", with a hard hitting ranged attack, would run along the paths that the minions are spawned from.
Variants like this work well to change it up if the same string of minions are too easy for the heroes. We played a game with each team having one "emergency spawn" in which they could spawn stronger minions if they needed a little extra push.
 
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