Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Another Obstruction Question rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Pontier
United States
Oak Forest
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This came up this week and I thought I had the right answer but now I don’t think I did.

This was the setup we encountered.



The question was whether the Firespray was obstructed by the Asteroid. I thought it was. I turned to page 20 in the rule book were it states “When measuring range during combat, if the edge of the range ruler between the closest points of the two ships overlaps on obstacle token, the attack is considered OBSTRUCTED.” The bolding is in the rule book.

In the next paragraph it states: “Remember that range is always measured as the shortest distance between the two ships’ bases. The attacker cannot attempt to measure range to a different part of a base in order to avoid obstructing obstacles.”

This cinched it for me. The Blue line is the shortest distance between the two ships and it clearly passed over the asteroid. The firespray was obstructed.

Then my opponent turned to page 10 where measuring range during combat is explained in more detail. On page 10 it reads: “To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc.” Again, the bolding is done in the rule book, but they completely bolded the wrong section. I missed the “that is inside the attacker’s firing arc,” section every time I have read that section.

So that means the Firespray is not obstructed since the shortest distance that is inside the X-Wing’s firing arc is not through an asteroid. However, the shortest distance from the Firespray to the X-Wing is inside the bigger ship’s firing arc so the X-Wing is obstructed if the Firespray wanted to shoot at him. Also, since the line from the Firespray to the X-Wing is shorter than the line from the X-Wing to the Firespray, it is possible that the Firespray fires at the X-Wing at range 2 while the X-Wing returns fire at range 3.

Does everyone agree with this? If one ship is obstructed, shouldn’t they both be obstructed? If one ship is at range 2, shouldn’t they both be at range 2?
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guido Gloor
Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern
flag msg tools
The statement below is false.
badge
The statement above is correct.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is exactly the way we played this till now, I wasn't aware that the rules allow another reading (yours), but they do.

It makes perfect sense to me that a ship that can only hit the portions of an enemy ship that are further away has a harder time hitting said ship. So one ship having another range than another is perfectly reasonable.

The unequal obstructions effect seems to be an unintended side effect to me, but then, how can an asteroid you can't possibly hit obstruct your fire?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nico
Germany
Bochum
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After reading the rules and the faq, i come to the conclusion that measuring the distance to attack a ship, doesn't follow the same rules as measuring if a ship is obstructed. It cleary states that again in the FAQ. So for checking if a ship is obstructed, you use the closes two points between both ships, to check the range you use the two closes points inside the firing arc.

Again this is how i would understand it, given the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Piqsid wrote:

Does everyone agree with this? If one ship is obstructed, shouldn’t they both be obstructed? If one ship is at range 2, shouldn’t they both be at range 2?


I agree with "this".

If one ship is obstructed, the other is not necessarily obstructed for the counterattack.

If one ship is at range 2, the other may or may not be in range 2 for the counterattack. In fact, if one is outside the other's firing arc (flanked or tailed), it may not have a shot at all. For example, move the X-wing forward a few centimeters and it doesn't see the Firespray at all.

Firing arcs are important.

*edit* It's kind of like the ostrich idea: If I stick my head in the sand, it doesn't mean my enemy can't see me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Lieffring
United States
Athens
Georgia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
haslo wrote:

The unequal obstructions effect seems to be an unintended side effect to me, but then, how can an asteroid you can't possibly hit obstruct your fire?


I can't see any reason why obstruction should have to be mutual. It might be mutual in most cases, but it the example provided herein is a textbook proof by counterexample that it isn't always so. Just because you can't see me doesn't mean I can't see you, only that I can't see your eyes. Whether not being able to see your eyes means I can't see enough of you depends on other factors, like I guess the size of your butt. Boba Fett has a big butt.
5 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean D.
Canada
Langley
British Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, is the Firespray obstructed then? I am confused.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hector131 wrote:
So, is the Firespray obstructed then? I am confused.


The Slave I's shot is obstructed (bonus defence die for the X-wing). The X-wing's shot is not obstructed (no bonus for the Slave I).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Mitchell
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hector131 wrote:
So, is the Firespray obstructed then? I am confused.


Yes Slave I is obstructed but the X-Wing isn't. It's just the variance in the bases. Measurement for each ship is separate and not mutual.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cormitt wrote:
Hector131 wrote:
So, is the Firespray obstructed then? I am confused.


Yes Slave I is obstructed but the X-Wing isn't. It's just the variance in the bases. Measurement for each ship is separate and not mutual.


Probably. FFG really should hire someone who can write rules more clearly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Creed Buhallin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
dowhilefor wrote:
After reading the rules and the faq, i come to the conclusion that measuring the distance to attack a ship, doesn't follow the same rules as measuring if a ship is obstructed. It cleary states that again in the FAQ. So for checking if a ship is obstructed, you use the closes two points between both ships, to check the range you use the two closes points inside the firing arc.

I think this is correct, especially given this paragraph (pg 20):

Remember that range is always measured as the shortest distance between the two ships’ bases. The attacker cannot attempt to measure range to a different part of a base in order to avoid obstructing obstacles.

Range measurements are generally closest to closest. Range measurements for attacks add an extra restriction that you can only measure to a point in your firing arc. Obstacle checks do not. So:

1. It would be possible for ships to be at different ranges when firing at each other
2. Obstructed shots should always be the same for both ships
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vayda
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
https://sites.google.com/site/cnjxwing/home
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a great topic.

But we are not all saying the same thing.

Anyone know how to make one of those snazzy polls here with the different options?

I get that distance is measured base to base shortest distance.
I get that firing arcs measure range.

I don't get if the obstruction is enforced from distance if it isn't in the arc/range.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel B
Sweden
Kungsbacka
flag msg tools
128
badge
22
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great question. I had the same question regarding primary weapons / secondary weapons / obstruction a while ago:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/946687/range-measurement...

My conclusion and what people seemed to agree on was:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure I'm reading too much into this and that you always should measure from the closest point of the attacker's base to the closest point of the target's base which is within the attacker's firing arc regardless if it is a primary or secondary weapon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derrick Billings
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sent this one in to FFG. It came up for us on Tuesday as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Necessary Evil
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
flag msg tools
Yes, I play the Bass.
badge
Sweet Holy Moses, Fruit F*cker Prime!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't agree they should both be.

The rules as written are clear. you shoot closest point to closest point inside your arc.

Range rules should follow the same thing... i will need to read them again but you should always measure form inside your arc if you ever have to....


-M
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Pontier
United States
Oak Forest
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
malloc wrote:
I don't agree they should both be.

The rules as written are clear. you shoot closest point to closest point inside your arc.

Range rules should follow the same thing... i will need to read them again but you should always measure form inside your arc if you ever have to....


-M


When you measure range 1 for Biggs or Howlrunner or Lando or Swarm Tactics or the seismic charge, you measure closest corner to closest corner regardless of firing arc.

When you measure Range 2 for Garvin or Dutch or Squad Leader, you measure closest corner to closest corner regardless of firing arc.

When you measure range 3 to acquire a target lock you measure closest corner to closest corner regardless of firing arc.

Now Biggs, Howlrunner, Lando, and Swarm all provide friendly benfits, meaning they affect your own ships. Since you would never fire on your own ships, firing arc is irrelevant. But from the rules, it looks like you measure distance between enemy ships differently than you measure distance between friendly ships because firing arc is important.

I understand how one ship could be obstructed and the other isn't. If I am hiding behind an over turned desk and you are standing in an open room and we are shooting at each other. Obviously you are easier to hit than I am because I am obstructed and you are not. But we are the same distance from each other no matter what.

Eventually there will be a ship or ability that affects other enemy ships at a specific range. There will be interdiction fields or a ship that can block sensors preventing target locks or something like that. And the rules will say that you measure distance form the closest corner to the closest corner. So when I shoot at you I measure the range 1 way, and when my ability triggers I measure it another way.

The question I have is: How should it be measured with regard to asteroids?

Right now the rules tell me that I can not measure it any other way than between the closest corners (page 20) and it also tells me that the measurement has to be within my firing arc (page 10).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert M.
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Buhallin wrote:

1. It would be possible for ships to be at different ranges when firing at each other
2. Obstructed shots should always be the same for both ships

I think this can't be the case. Under "Attacking Through Obstacles", the rules indicate that "...range is always measured as the shortest distance between the two ships' bases." But as Piqsid points out, the description of "Range" on page 10 says you measure from the closest point on the attacker's ship to the closest point on the target ship that's still within the attacker's arc.

These two statements are clearly in tension: the later statement in "Obstructions" says that range is always measured in a way that the section on measuring range clearly precludes in some cases. There are two ways to resolve this tension, and the first is the one you've illustrated--that is, each description of measuring range applies to a different scope. Unfortunately, that creates two problems. First, it means you potentially have to measure twice when attacking: once to determine range, and once to determine obstruction. Second, the nature of the procedure both overloads and represent an inherent contradiction of the term "measuring range". In the measure-twice interpretation, both of the checks are referred to as "measuring range", despite the fact that one of them actually has nothing whatsoever to do with range.

The other way is to assume that the description under "Attacking Through Obstacles" is a recap of the rules for measuring range (albeit a poorly written one). That is, it's there to add the detail of checking for obstructions as you check for range, and also to remind players that you can't just pick conveniently unobstructed points from which to measure. That has the advantage of maintaining a single procedure called "measuring range", which does exactly what it says on the tin.

***

TL;DR:

* When attacking, range is always measured from the closest point on the attacker's base to the closest point of the defender's base that is in the attacker's firing arc.

* Unless the two bases are exactly parallel, there is only one correct range measurement. You don't get to pick the most advantageous one.

* An attack is obstructed if and only if that range measurement intersects an obstruction.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Creed Buhallin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Looking through this again, I'm not sure that the Attacking Through Obstacles rule doesn't contradict itself.

There are two range measurements:
Page 9: General guidelines for measuring range
Page 10: Specific guidelines for measuring range when selecting a target

So on Page 20, we have:
When measuring range during combat, if the edge of the range rule between the closest points of the two ships overlaps...
The first part of the sentence says the measuring conditions should be the combat ones on page 10. The second part says it should be shortest path, which is the general from page 9.

Crappy rules writing. I'd probably still be inclined to go with the double-extra-reminding that it's shortest path on Page 20, but I could honestly go either way at this point.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Vorpal Sword wrote:

That has the advantage of maintaining a single procedure called "measuring range", which does exactly what it says on the tin.


This is the best playable approach. Too bad that we cannot rely on FFG to use a consistent definition of anythin ghappening in this game. But the fact that this is the best applicable solution makes me believe that this is what FFG wanted to write (but just didn't).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derrick Billings
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ding!

Quote:
Hello Derrick,


Quote:
If the shortest distance between two ships is obstructed, but the obstruction lies entirely outside the attacker's firing arc, is it obstructed?



In the case of a typical primary or secondary weapon attack such as Proton Torpedoes that requires the ship to shoot within its firing arc, the attack is NOT obstructed. With these attacks, the shortest distance line WITHIN the firing arc is the only line that matters.


In the case of a turret attack, such as the Ion Cannon Turret or the Millennium Falcon's primary weapon, the firing arc is ignored. The shortest distance between the attacker and defender is also the line of attack, so if that line crosses an asteroid, the attack is obstructed.


Thanks for playing!


James Kniffen
Associate Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com

The answers provided in this email should not be considered official for the current X-Wing tournament season. Please refer to the current FAQ for rules questions, or consult your Tournament Organizer.
11 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Cocquyt
United States
Maine
flag msg tools
mbmb
so I assume that in this case the X-Wing would not have a shot?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jaravak wrote:
so I assume that in this case the X-Wing would not have a shot?



Correct.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
West Palm Beach
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
The world is what we make of it. So why not make it a better place?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I know this and generally agreed on already and we're all waiting for FFG to formally decide. But I'm taking another view.

First, in practice. Specifically big ship small ship concept. It is easy to hide a small ship behind and obstacle and even if part of a large ship is covered that doesn't mean the most of it isn't. That is just reality.

For the rules when applying the above, I think keeping within the firing arc is not only good balance but also strikes at the concept of differing vessel sizes.

For example, a single asteroid, X-Wing and Star Destroyer. Part of a gun is partially blocked from the X-Wing but is entirely outside it's firing arc anyway. But the entire bridge, shield generators, control super structure is clearly visible and unobstructed and well within my firing arc. As a fighter I'm still going to dodge within the asteroid field if I can, as a larger ship I may choose not to.

Just my two cents...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Miceli
msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Dead Man's Doubloons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iNano78 wrote:
Jaravak wrote:
so I assume that in this case the X-Wing would not have a shot?



Correct.


Wait - would not have a shot, or just that the shot would be obstructed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Morgan
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jasonmiceli wrote:
Wait - would not have a shot, or just that the shot would be obstructed?


Would not have a shot, because the shortest line within its firing arc puts the target at > range 3.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EitherOrlok wrote:
jasonmiceli wrote:
Wait - would not have a shot, or just that the shot would be obstructed?


Would not have a shot, because the shortest line within its firing arc puts the target at > range 3.


Although, to help address the confusion - THAT particular situation would be true whether the asteroid was there or not.

IE., it's not a question about obstruction, just measuring range.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.