Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
89 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

Robotech RPG Tactics» Forums » General

Subject: Another Money Grab...??? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
StevenE Smooth Sailing...
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Currently Palladium has exceeded their initial funding goal by 5 times... the KS is at $360K+ and growing. I am willing to bet Robotech will get close to the million dollar point if not more... so why are all the stretch goals purchase add-ons?

Not one stretch goal has been a "thank you" to be applied to the base game. What gives? Is Palladium really that strapped to produce this game?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you may not have followed this kickstarter campaign from the beginning. This graphic clearly shows that quite a lot has already been added to the Battlecry pledge level, and let's not forget we still have 3 weeks to go:

Edit: 12 Zentraedi faction dice have also been added to the $80 pledge level and above.

Edit2: Updated to reflect even MORE FREEBIES achieved for Battlecry pledges!!! Only 2k away from getting another free Veritech in 3 modes.

8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Fung
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From my reading of the Kickstarter page, the first three stretch goals were to include faction dice and a recon battlepod to the First Contact level. I do find it dubious that the next stretch goal is to increase the size of a Gnerl Fighter add-on from 2 to 3, benefiting only people who purchase that add-on. Maybe the next goal will something that comes included with the game.

I'm personally finding some of the add-ons overpriced ($40 for a MkII Monster, $20 for a couple fighters or the Spartan pack), but I'm not a miniatures gamer, so I don't have a good baseline for the cost of minis.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
StevenE Smooth Sailing...
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My apologies... Is the "First Contact" level not the base game?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StevenE wrote:
My apologies... Is the "First Contact" level not the base game?

For the base game, so far 2 sets of faction dice and 1 Recon Pod has been added, which is not too bad considering they clearly indicated that Battlecry is the level that qualifies for stretch goals.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
D6Frog wrote:
Are the faction dice on top of the battle dice? So now you get 24 dice?

I think I read that it replaces the original vanilla dice, so it's 12 UEDF dice and 12 Zentraedi dice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fusag wrote:
I'm personally finding some of the add-ons overpriced ($40 for a MkII Monster, $20 for a couple fighters or the Spartan pack), but I'm not a miniatures gamer, so I don't have a good baseline for the cost of minis.

Some of the more experienced miniature gamers in the forums have mentioned that it's actually a reasonably good deal for the size and plastic that they are using.

There is a comparison shot with a GW outer-planetary-trooper-thingy that shows how big these minis are.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brant Benoit
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not bad. But what gets me is that most of the stretch goals are expansions to previous stretch goal add-ons. For instance the Destroid add-on; it originally came with 2 Destroids, and now includes 4.

However, you still have to pay $20 more in addition to your pledge in order to take advantage of either of those stretch goals (and I think they both took $50k to unlock each one). I think they're walking a fine line, really. There's quite a bit of grumbling in the comments section.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For $140 you are getting 57 miniatures. Sure some of them are the alternate modes for the Veritechs. But if you compare that to GW 40k box set of Dark Vengeance I think it is great value.

1. The figures in robotech are bigger than most of those in Dark Vengeance.
2. There will be more added in days to come.
3. It's a full size rule book in robotech. Not a poxy mini book.
4. It's freaking robotech!!!
5. Made from the same material.
6. Dark Vengeance, here in Australia, is $160. So Robotech is cheaper.
7. Currently the cost per model is $2.45. That is great when most of the miniatures stand twice the height of a space marine.
8. Did I mention is was ROBOTECH!



I cannot wait to get my hands on this. I would have paid $140 for the first contact set. Battle cry is amazing value and is only getting better. I realize people have the right to voice their opinion and criticisms but it really gets old, fast.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Sisk (Major Headcase)
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
Ive been in on this from day 1, and am also a life long wargamer. The 140 dollar Battle Cry level is an awesome deal! And with 3+ weeks still left to go, its only going to get better!
As for stretch goals giving add ons to purchase only bonuses, whats wrong with that? A person pledging EVEN MORE money than a basic level by buying an add on deserves a thank you reward too.
Kickstarter has gotten to the point where some people feel that once they gave the minimum amount they can get away with, EVERYTHING else should be free! Thats a childish and unrealistic expectation.
5 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR Wr
United States
North Port
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just figured id throw this out there.....

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don McCalmon
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Major Headcase wrote:
Ive been in on this from day 1, and am also a life long wargamer. The 140 dollar Battle Cry level is an awesome deal! And with 3+ weeks still left to go, its only going to get better!
As for stretch goals giving add ons to purchase only bonuses, whats wrong with that? A person pledging EVEN MORE money than a basic level by buying an add on deserves a thank you reward too.
Kickstarter has gotten to the point where some people feel that once they gave the minimum amount they can get away with, EVERYTHING else should be free! Thats a childish and unrealistic expectation.


Well said!

I also got into this KS very early, and am happy with the level of support they are throwing in, both as freebies and add-on purchases. I'll wait closer to the end before I buy any additional add-ons, just so I can gauge what I want based on what else they throw in with the base set. For example, I was going to purchase 2x the Spartan pack add-on, but with the new Strength in Numbers stretch goals, I may only get 1.

I jumped in at the Showdown level (2x everything) because
1. It's cheaper than buying 2 sets separately
2. It gives more models for larger/more varied games

Thanks,

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emperors Grace
United States
Rexford
New York
flag msg tools
Hello!
badge
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;The old that is strong does not wither,Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ropya wrote:
Just figured id throw this out there.....



I missed that and I thought I'd been paying attention.

Where is that from?

Nevermind... It must have just gone up, but I see it now.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shinners
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
Emperors Grace wrote:

I missed that and I thought I'd been paying attention.

Where is that from?


Most recent backer update.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
United States
Anchorage
Alaska
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My only real complaint and reason why I changed my mind about backing is the fact that they are not adding in conversion rules or additional statistics for more Mecha from the Robotech series.

Palladium has an entire RPG with dozens of Veritech, Invid, and more stuff all with full statistics but there is no way to convert any of this stuff to this miniatures game.

If they spend a few days and add in the conversion rules as a stretch goal I'll back the game but that's the only thing that will get my support.

It might sound like an odd request but with the RPG rules I can already play a miniatures game much like this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don McCalmon
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Grumsh wrote:
My only real complaint and reason why I changed my mind about backing is the fact that they are not adding in conversion rules or additional statistics for more Mecha from the Robotech series.

Palladium has an entire RPG with dozens of Veritech, Invid, and more stuff all with full statistics but there is no way to convert any of this stuff to this miniatures game.

If they spend a few days and add in the conversion rules as a stretch goal I'll back the game but that's the only thing that will get my support.

It might sound like an odd request but with the RPG rules I can already play a miniatures game much like this.


It was mentioned they would like to do this in the future, but I doubt it will be part of the Kickstarter. It seems reasonable to focus on one era first, gauge interest and income, then expand as appropriate.

Personally I would love to be able to have an official game mechanic for designing my own units (like in BattleTech), whether from the Robotech genre or for home-made games. There are many 1/285 mecha minis to choose from (BattleTech and Heavy Gear to name two game lines) that it would be nice to have a balanced approach to unit design and have a varied selection of units to keep the game fresh.

Thanks,
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Fung
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ismar2 wrote:
It was mentioned they would like to do this in the future, but I doubt it will be part of the Kickstarter. It seems reasonable to focus on one era first, gauge interest and income, then expand as appropriate.


Nope, can't wait. Need Cyclones now.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Canning
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Stand By, Ready
badge
Wolkenritter
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fusag wrote:
ismar2 wrote:
It was mentioned they would like to do this in the future, but I doubt it will be part of the Kickstarter. It seems reasonable to focus on one era first, gauge interest and income, then expand as appropriate.


Nope, can't wait. Need Cyclones now.


Cyclones are only 6 or 7mm tall.

I'd prefer Ninja Divisions sculptors get more practice on larger things first.

We might see Alpha's though. The first of those were used against the Malcontents IIRC.

If they run out of other things to do for the first war.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Fung
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It was a joke. Sheesh.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chromaticdragon wrote:
StevenE wrote:
My apologies... Is the "First Contact" level not the base game?

For the base game, so far 2 sets of faction dice and 1 Recon Pod has been added, which is not too bad considering they clearly indicated that Battlecry is the level that qualifies for stretch goals.

Amazingly the 430k stretch goal looks like it will add destroids to the boxed game, meaning at the $80 pledge level and above. If added, the Tomahawk/Defender sprues in the core box would come with enough parts to make 2 of each or 4 of either one.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Below is a great post by backer dal_downing that I think is worth repeating here to help us understand the costs involved with ABS plastic miniatures:

Quote:
Part of the problems seems to be people do not understanding the difference between Spin Cast and Mold Injection. Now I do not work for anyone involved in this project but I do work in a Plastic Molding Facility.

If these game pieces were all going to be white metal then ND and Palladium would be making a bunch of RTV Silicone Molds and basically pour casting the Minis. That makes White Metal cheaper to start production on and once you start with that or even use a poured epoxy, your cost per unit remains pretty flat for the life of your mold which would be 250 cast if your lucky before you have to start over and make a new mold. For small runs this poured method is the way to go.

If your using a ABS injection mold, Legos are made with ABS by the way, your initial cost start to climb rapidly you have to pay for the mold to be built by a tool shop. The shop then has to buy a large 1 cubic foot block of metal to use. Now that the mold is made you are sitting at somewhere around 25 Grand for a single game piece and have not even made a single mini. Next you have to pay to ship the mold to a Manufacture facility. Anyone want to guess what the cost of shipping a chunk of steel that larger is?

Once the mold arrives at the molder you have even more cost here. You have to pay for all the raw resin in advance which gets cheaper as you buy it in bulk. Then you have to pay the shop a one time setup fee to have someone figure out how to put your mold in and and what the process it takes to make the thing work. You can not just put a mold in a machine and turn it on and walk away. It needs instructions on how hot to run, how much pressure to hold, how much plastic to fed the mold, how long to keep the mold close to cool the plastic, etc. Once you have all that your molder still wants a certain cost per shot to pay for the equipment wear and tare in making the minis plus they need to pay a operator to run the machine.

The good news is at this point most of the development cost are done. The longer you can let that mold run or cycle as it is called, the more shots you produce. With each successive shot it miniature gets cheaper and cheaper to make as all that developmental cost is averaged out. The reason we are starting to see more of the previous minis being added to the boxes is because the numbers are starting to hit the plateau where the price per piece is going down enough to make it financially reasonable for them to add more of that mini to the box.

Think about it right now we are sitting at a minimum of 11 mold. This would give us one mold each for the VF1As, VF1A/J/S, Battlepods, Officer Pod, Destroid, Spartan, Gnrel, Artillery Pod, and MKII Monster and the 2 molds for dice. That is 11 times through the process out lined above. And you still have not Paid shipping from the Manufacture to yourself, Packaging for the game, your Developmental Cost, your Day to Day Operational Cost which allow you to stay in business so you can make a second game and never forget you have to pat the taxes.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Canning
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Stand By, Ready
badge
Wolkenritter
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've got some quibbles.

Production white metal would most likely be cast in a vulcanised spincast mold. Those would be good for thousands of impressions and have space for several dozen 25 mm figures.

RTV molds are for masters or very short runs or resin rather than white metal. They aren't that much cheaper than vulcanised molds say about half or third the price. He's right about their life span when used to cast resin.

Metal injection molds can be less a complete block than he suggests. Ceramic injection molds also exist but their life spans mean tehy probably aren't suitable for this.

Have a look an almost complete metal mold from sedition wars.


The dice don't need a full mold. The people who make speciality dice have iirc molds with a removable plate for the custom face. You only need a plate tooled, which is quite a lot cheaper. I want to say around £500 from Chessex but that is from memory and several years ago.

I make the likely mold list so far assuming the molds are all the same size Rick + Roy, 2xVF1, 3xRegult, Glaug+Recon, 3xGnerl, 2xTomahawk or Defender, Spartan+Phalanx, Mac II.

I'm surprised the Artillery Pod bits aren't apparently going to be on the Regult sprue. But they've changed their minds on such things already with the recon pod so we shall see how it ends up..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brant Benoit
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dice can be outsourced, and then etched with a laser engraver. You don't need to spend 25k on a metal mold for dice. That's outrageous. I got custom dice for myself at 12 bucks a set for 12 dice. With the quantities that this game is going to need, it'll be more like 12 cents a set.

As far as the rest of the molds go; there's one mold needed for all the battlepods, including all of their accessories.
there might be need for a single mold for the Glaug Officer's pod, but chances are, it would likely be in the same mold as the battlepods, just on a separate sprue.

There's one mold needed for all the Veritechs and their accessories.

There will be one mold for all the Destroids, as the bodies are all the same.

There will be one mold needed for the MAC II.

So, at most, we're looking at 125k for all the molds needed thus far.

All the stretch goals are just repeats of these same figures, most of the time as an add-on, which you need to pay more. If they're producing all the figures in bulk (which they obviously are) the costs keep going down with each added Veritech, Battlepd, or Destroid. Yet, most of these are still add-ons, which you have to pay for.

The Battle Cry pledge is still the same, and the project has made another 100k since the original image was posted above, with the only thing changing is custom dice. Custom Zentraedi dice....cost over 100k...I should start making dice.....

I really doubt they're just barely covering their costs with this project.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chromaticdragon wrote:
I think you may not have followed this kickstarter campaign from the beginning. This graphic clearly shows that quite a lot has already been added to the Battlecry pledge level, and let's not forget we still have 3 weeks to go:


The Robotech Kickstarter is definitely a money grab, and that is made obvious by the very high $140 "buy-in" to get stretch goals, along with basically all non-basic sculpts being additional purchases. Anything over $120 for the kit smells of a money grab, especially when they're not throwing more and more "interesting" stuff in the box, but instead charging $20+ per extra. At $40, the MAC-II is *very* expensive for a Kickstarter add-on.

The graphic shows Palladium turning the crank to give a 2nd Glaug + Recon sprue, along with more Veritechs and pods -- all stuff that comes in the basic boxed set, just more, with variant cards.

For a miniatures Kickstarter, a "fair" price would be $2 per model, so I'd expect 40+ models in the $80 game, and 80+ in the $140 Kickstater package. But I don't really see it getting there based on approach to date.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G G
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ghool wrote:
Dice can be outsourced, and then etched with a laser engraver. You don't need to spend 25k on a metal mold for dice. That's outrageous. I got custom dice for myself at 12 bucks a set for 12 dice. With the quantities that this game is going to need, it'll be more like 12 cents a set.


Custom Dice are $1 each in quantity of 25 or less. In quantity 25,000+, I'd look to pay closer to $0.25 per die. At $3 per set of 12 x 2,000 gives +$6k total cost against a +$20k stretch goal from $325k to $345k.

The Gnerl Fighter stretch goal is proportionally worse. Producing 1 additional Fighter costs a buck at most, for +$2k cost versus an even larger +30k stretch goal.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.