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Subject: "Fixing" the red Taoist p2 rss

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Danny Frahm
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There is some great discussion previously done on this topic here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370449/fixing-the-red-taoist
Rather than resurrecting this thread I thought I'd start again.

A friend and I have been playing a lot of Ghost Stories together 2player. Randomly assigning toasts and powers. This variant is focused on balance/fun between individual Taoist powers. The main reason that the red Taoist is weak and less fun is his abilities do not help exorcisms which are required almost every turn to keep moving towards winning the game.

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RED TOAIST VARIANT
Before performing an exorcism you may turn one of the die so it's white side is facing up, then roll the remaining dice. The red Taoist may activate this power OR his regular power, but not both in the same turn.
--

Effectively this makes the red Taoist more consistent, and powerful against low health enemies. It also makes him generally more fun to play and of a similar power to other taoists, by providing an ability that helps with exorcisms.

I liken this ability to a weaker enfeeblement power. Other taoists can't use it and it results in the Red Taoist rolling one less dice.

My friend and I keep separate kill piles and we haven't noticed red being excessively strong.
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TS S. Fulk
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FinalAttack wrote:
There is some great discussion previously done on this topic here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370449/fixing-the-red-taoist
Rather than resurrecting this thread I thought I'd start again.

A friend and I have been playing a lot of Ghost Stories together 2player. Randomly assigning toasts and powers. This variant is focused on balance/fun between individual Taoist powers. The main reason that the red Taoist is weak and less fun is his abilities do not help exorcisms which are required almost every turn to keep moving towards winning the game.

---
RED TOAIST VARIANT
Before performing an exorcism you may turn one of the die so it's white side is facing up, then roll the remaining dice. The red Taoist may activate this power OR his regular power, but not both in the same turn.
--

Effectively this makes the red Taoist more consistent, and powerful against low health enemies. It also makes him generally more fun to play and of a similar power to other taoists, by providing an ability that helps with exorcisms.

I liken this ability to a weaker enfeeblement power. Other taoists can't use it and it results in the Red Taoist rolling one less dice.

My friend and I keep separate kill piles and we haven't noticed red being excessively strong.


Do you play strict 2-player or each player gets two characters? If the former I can see how someone might not like the Red Taoist. In a 4-taoist game, the pusher is a god-send.
 
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Julien Le Jeune
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Red taoist's ability to move another taoist 1 tile is useful every single turn when I play.

It doesn't need any buff to me, at all!
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TS S. Fulk
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Shoogoo wrote:
Red taoist's ability to move another taoist 1 tile is useful every single turn when I play.

It doesn't need any buff to me, at all!


Useful and a god-send, but is it fun to play. I think that's what the OP was getting at. Playing a supporting character is not always that fun.
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In multiplayer games the red Taoist powers seem to work well enough (discounting the point about supporting roles for the moment). However I find a problem with the mechanic in the solo games when the three power tokens are in use. Since using and re-gathering the power tokens is essential to exploit all three monks powers this means regular stops on the central tile. This seems to reduce the benefit of red's double move. Is this just a mistaken perception? If not, has anyone got a fix or a tactic that helps this?
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kasca wrote:
In multiplayer games the red Taoist powers seem to work well enough (discounting the point about supporting roles for the moment). However I find a problem with the mechanic in the solo games when the three power tokens are in use. Since using and re-gathering the power tokens is essential to exploit all three monks powers this means regular stops on the central tile. This seems to reduce the benefit of red's double move. Is this just a mistaken perception? If not, has anyone got a fix or a tactic that helps this?
In 1p games, you get to spam up to all 3 abilities at once if you have 3 power tokens. That typically more than makes up for having to end your turn at the center tile.
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ackmondual wrote:
In 1p games, you get to spam up to all 3 abilities at once if you have 3 power tokens. That typically more than makes up for having to end your turn at the center tile.


In a solitaire game the 'use other Taoist's powers' mechanic applies to all four Taoists. Only the Red Taoist has a power (Flying) whose value is that he can move from one side of the village to the other every move if needed.

Having to stop to retrieve the power tokens from the central tile seems to interfere with the Flying power more than the others. The other three Taoists frequently have to pass through the central tile in any case, and when they occasionally need it they have access to Flying. I admit it can depend on what aid the villager in the central tile is providing, but if it is one that is used infrequently, then the stops in the middle are of less value.

I did say this was a perception, and might well be mistaken. Of course, not placing village tiles randomly is one obvious fix. An oddity about this is that the boxed rulebook says to 'randomly arrange' the village tiles, which I prefer, while the iPad version allows manual re-arrangement.
 
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Shoosh shoo
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firstly, its your game and the goal is to have fun. If you like your rule modifications then thats what is important.

personally the way i look at it is that every taoist has a power which is useful in certain situations. I hate playing blue because i tend to have lousy rolling so his two attempts at exorcising ghosts means nothing to me. I love the yellow daoist because i dont have to roll as many hits! the green is great for not having to roll the cursed die but i do enjoy reds ability. I find that he comes in very useful throughout the game. i think that if you find yourself losing a lot, or that the red is no fun, force yourself to utilize his power more frequently. Theres always something useful to do in this game.
 
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Danny Frahm
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tssfulk wrote:
Shoogoo wrote:
Red taoist's ability to move another taoist 1 tile is useful every single turn when I play.

It doesn't need any buff to me, at all!


Useful and a god-send, but is it fun to play. I think that's what the OP was getting at. Playing a supporting character is not always that fun.


True, especially in a two player game. Basically the 'move another Taoist means the other player has flight. Boring.

But even the flight side, apart from being less interesting, isn't as strong. Mainly because it doesn't help with exorcisms which is the core theme of the game.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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It certainly helps get other taoists in position to conduct exorcisms.

I think the root of the problem is that this power is something you do for others, rather than an intrinsic boon that increases your own power on your turn. Thus, it doesn't feel as "cool".

It's still darn helpful in a 4 player game.
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Maurizio Briosi
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It can be played as a "you help me" thing. Remember that you can use other taoist token if you share the square.
Move as red, and then move someone TO your square to access theyr tokens. Probabily not always the best choice, but with a blue double action get token, it makes red a powerful exorcizer!
I instead see the "double action/double exo" blue more limiting (some tiles does nothing with double action, double exo can be overkill).
 
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Todd Trimmer
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To make Flying Red more powerful, yet still stay true to the spirit of the original intention, allow him to move two tiles, but each movement may come before or after his action. So Move-Action-Move, Move-Move-Action, or Action-Move-Move. This lets him do his thing and then hopefully stack on another Taoist on their turn so they can use Red' Tao tokens.

Still not powerful enough for you? Fly to any tile, perform an action, then fly to any tile again.
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toddiuszho wrote:
To make Flying Red more powerful, yet still stay true to the spirit of the original intention, allow him to move two tiles, but each movement may come before or after his action. So Move-Action-Move, Move-Move-Action, or Action-Move-Move. This lets him do his thing and then hopefully stack on another Taoist on their turn so they can use Red' Tao tokens.

Still not powerful enough for you? Fly to any tile, perform an action, then fly to any tile again.
This still wouldn't let you pick up neutral power tokens, as you'd need to end your turn on a center tile to pick them up. That said, I still like this suggestion.

I got intrigued with new monk powers, so I came up with a bunch of "third side" powers here, and even put in a theoretical "black Taoist".

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1155127/new-monk-powers
 
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Sean Cotter
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toddiuszho wrote:
To make Flying Red more powerful, yet still stay true to the spirit of the original intention, allow him to move two tiles, but each movement may come before or after his action. So Move-Action-Move, Move-Move-Action, or Action-Move-Move. This lets him do his thing and then hopefully stack on another Taoist on their turn so they can use Red' Tao tokens.


This is similar to how I play him, except he must use his 'normal' move before acting, and can't use the bonus to return to a space he previously occupied. This makes him infinitely more enjoyable to play. Note that by forcing him to move to a new space he cannot -in solitaire mode- continue to use all 3 neutral power tokens and then bounce back to the center to pick them up again.
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