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Subject: Troyes or Macao: Which one to buy and why? rss

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Jeirod
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Would you recommend Troyes or Macao?

Been looking for a good Dice Euro to add to my collection for quite some time. Both are on my wishlist, but can only fit one into the budget for now, so which would you suggest and why? Don't mind if you haven't played both, I still need your input. Both seem like winners, but I need some hands on user pros and cons such as:

1. Replay Value

2. Length

3. Player Scalability

4. Component Quality

5. Anything else you feel makes or breaks the deal
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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I prefer Macao, but both are pretty good fits for your requirements. Troyes has a bit more of a learning curve (not overly so), and Macao may initially seem a bit more luck driven. I don't think you can lose either way....
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Kathleen Nugent
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Macao is "kinder" than Troyes. Granted, I've played Macao hundreds of times and Troyes only a few. But in Troyes it always seemed that whatever I wanted to do, I couldn't do it because someone else took my dice or my position before my turn arrived. Macao is pretty much group solitaire, though it is definitely an advantage to go first each turn to have the best card selection available to you.

I love Macao.
I don't love Troyes even the the board and pieces feel sort of Feld-ish.
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Robert Beachler
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Troyes is the better game overall it's actually a strategy game where Macao is just playing dice with yourself.
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Jonathan Challis
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Both credible options, but Macao is a far better game, with more strategy (as opposed to tactics), and that rewards a lot of replays.

robbdaman wrote:
Troyes is the better game overall it's actually a strategy game where Macao is just playing dice with yourself.


You clearly haven't played enough Macao to understand it. In fact I'd be really surprised to get that viewpoint from anyone having played more than one game of it. Unless you are against the whole multiplayer-solitaire genre and want interaction beyond blocking peoples moves, stealing their goods, and taking cards they wanted, etc?
 
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Jeirod
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EllenCaroline wrote:
Macao is "kinder" than Troyes.... But in Troyes it always seemed that whatever I wanted to do, I couldn't do it because someone else took my dice or my position before my turn arrived. Macao is pretty much group solitaire, though it is definitely an advantage to go first each turn to have the best card selection available to you.


I know there is a turn order or initiative track in Macao, but does it feel as if the turn order can be abused? To put it more clearly, is the game balanced enough that a player can't constantly focus on turn order, dumping actions into it to keep going first, but still have enough remaining action cubes to buy up all the good cards that come his/her way before the other players? Or does this eager player usually suffer by not having enough cubes left over to accomplish anything else?
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Midsummer Night wrote:
EllenCaroline wrote:
Macao is "kinder" than Troyes.... But in Troyes it always seemed that whatever I wanted to do, I couldn't do it because someone else took my dice or my position before my turn arrived. Macao is pretty much group solitaire, though it is definitely an advantage to go first each turn to have the best card selection available to you.


I know there is a turn order or initiative track in Macao, but does it feel as if the turn order can be abused? To put it more clearly, is the game balanced enough that a player can't constantly focus on turn order, dumping actions into it to keep going first, but still have enough remaining action cubes to buy up all the good cards that come his/her way before the other players? Or does this eager player usually suffer by not having enough cubes left over to accomplish anything else?

Turn order is a tricky thing. If you don't have to put a lot of effort into moving up in turn order, then it can be worth it. If, however, two players are fighting it out for first player, then it's best to sit back and do your own thing. You can definitely win without focussing on turn order.
 
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David B
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Kelanen wrote:
Both credible options, but Macao is a far better game, with more strategy (as opposed to tactics), and that rewards a lot of replays.

robbdaman wrote:
Troyes is the better game overall it's actually a strategy game where Macao is just playing dice with yourself.


You clearly haven't played enough Macao to understand it. In fact I'd be really surprised to get that viewpoint from anyone having played more than one game of it. Unless you are against the whole multiplayer-solitaire genre and want interaction beyond blocking peoples moves, stealing their goods, and taking cards they wanted, etc?



Yeah, I would be shocked if that guy has played Macao more than once. And to be honest, I do not think it's likely he has played it even once.
 
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Jonathan C
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I have not played Macao, only read reviews. I very much enjoy Troyes, because I feel that a game with such frequent dice rolling should be more heavily tactical, reacting to opponents' use of dice, instead of strategic, at which you could be solely at the mercy of probabilities. Thus experienced players have more ability to, after identifying the leader from turn to turn, preventing runaway victories.

I find this is not possible in other dice games I have played, like Settlers of Catan, or Kingsburg, both of which leave me feeling high and dry.
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James Mathias
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First off. Love both games very much.

Buy Macao, if you don't mind feeling stressed and slightly out of control of your personal situation.

Buy Troyes, if you don't mind doing division in public.

In sincerity, buy both, you won't be unhappy with either.
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Kathleen Nugent
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Midsummer Night wrote:
I know there is a turn order or initiative track in Macao, but does it feel as if the turn order can be abused? To put it more clearly, is the game balanced enough that a player can't constantly focus on turn order, dumping actions into it to keep going first, but still have enough remaining action cubes to buy up all the good cards that come his/her way before the other players? Or does this eager player usually suffer by not having enough cubes left over to accomplish anything else?


First of all, you don't "buy" action cubes. You choose the cubes you need based on the colors on the dice. If the red die shows a 3, you get three red cubes and put them on the wheel at the "3" space. Three turns from now, you have the 3 red cubes to play with.

To move up on the wall - the turn order mechanism - you spend one cube of any color to move up one space. If you want to move up two spaces on the wall, the second space costs two cubes, not one. I wouldn't refer to it as "dumping actions into it."

I mostly play 2-player Macao. My gaming partner is usually first on the wall. I usually win the game. So turn order isn't always important. Once in a while I wish I could get a certain available card and she takes it. But you can't plan ahead of time because you don't know which cards will appear during each turn - except for the Office cards.



 
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Robert Beachler
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pfctsqr wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Both credible options, but Macao is a far better game, with more strategy (as opposed to tactics), and that rewards a lot of replays.

robbdaman wrote:
Troyes is the better game overall it's actually a strategy game where Macao is just playing dice with yourself.


You clearly haven't played enough Macao to understand it. In fact I'd be really surprised to get that viewpoint from anyone having played more than one game of it. Unless you are against the whole multiplayer-solitaire genre and want interaction beyond blocking peoples moves, stealing their goods, and taking cards they wanted, etc?



Yeah, I would be shocked if that guy has played Macao more than once. And to be honest, I do not think it's likely he has played it even once.


Or you could be shocked that Macao just isn't as good a game. It's a Feld so really all you are doing is playing a bunch of different mechanics. I've played it and it is BORING. Yes, the interaction makes a lot of difference. If I wanted to play with myself sitting next to someone there are solo games I could play anytime and anywhere. I'd rather play Trajan or Castles of Burgundy if I am going to play a Feld.
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Jacob Walker
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I have not played Troyes, so I cannot fairly recommend one over the other, but I can at least speak to your 5 categories where Macao is concerned.

Quote:
1. Replay Value


The game is fueled by which cards come into play. There are 24 office cards that you will see every game, in a randomized order. There are 96(?) other cards, and you will see 48 of them in each game (or less if playing with less than 4), again in a randomized order. These cards will affect your viable strategies throughout the game, but typically things will boil down to either (1) shipping goods for points or (2) buying points. Still, the cards give you a fair amount of variety in accomplishing these two things. I suspect you'll find that things stay pretty varied.

Quote:
2. Length


If everyone knows what they're doing, I would estimate no more than half an hour per player. With 2 players, an hour is a pretty safe bet, and with 4, I would guess maybe an hour and a half. The early turns have a negligible length, and one phase of the game occurs simultaneously between players, so adding more layers doesn't hurt length terribly much.

Quote:
3. Player Scalability


Fewer players means you will see fewer cards, potentially limiting your strategic options, but you also compete with less players for those cards, so it's a bit of a wash. Fewer players does make shipping easier, as you have to compete with less players for a limited supply of goods. This game has a fairly limited amount of player interaction as it is, mostly just boiling down to staying first in the turn order so you have the best pick of cards and goods. Frankly, I like this system, and this sort of system tends to imply strong scalability.

Quote:
4. Component Quality


Nothing incredible, but everything functions, and I'm not concerned with anything falling apart. The hobbit cards are a mite annoying, but they save space, so I can't really complain.

Quote:
5. Anything else you feel makes or breaks the deal


On the negative side, this game has some definite translation issues, particularly where terms on the cards like "whenever" or "every time" are concerned. A slightly more consistent translation would be nice, but you can go to the forums to find better translations, or just try and make a consistent decision among your gaming group.
On the positive side, I find the game pretty easy to teach. It takes a while to build up enough cubes to have busy turns, but this means that early turns do a good job of demonstrating the various game mechanics before you get assaulted with possible actions in the later game. I don't typically advocate the "learn as you play" approach, but it could work with this game.
Also on the positive side, I just really enjoy the central mechanic of the game. Roll 6 dice, everybody picks 2 and adds the appropriate number/color to the appropriate turn on their individual rondels. It's simple, but it works, and it's very satisfying to watch your action cube supply build up to that critical turn where you get to go gangbusters.
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Kirk Thomas
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Own them both. I've played a lot more of Troyes than Macao, largely because it's on BGA.

I think Troyes is a classic. It's tight, heavily interactive, and intense decisions that don't grind you to a halt. It's tougher to learn / teach, but once people know how to play, it moves quickly. Can easily be played in less than 90 minutes. Plays great 2-4p

Macao is one of my favorite Feld games. It's much more interactive than many of his others, but much less intensely interactive than Troyes. Lots of good decisions, the dice mechanic is brilliant IMO, and many strategies to adopt. Seems to scale well from 2-4p, though I strongly prefer 4p from my plays.

Both have high replayability. Troyes now has an excellent expansion out.

You won't go wrong with either. I'd go with Troyes.
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Brian Schwartz
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I can only give my opinions on Troyes, never played Macao

1. Replay Value

I think it is highly replayable. The game is difference every time since there is a variety of cards.

2. Length

The game lasts about an hour maybe a touch more.


3. Player Scalability

Scales well for players of varying numbers

4. Component Quality

Cards are nice, standard cubes

5. Anything else you feel makes or breaks the deal


VERY VERY hard to teach, and of all of my friends, only one will actually play it with me. The cards are hard to figure out what they mean, and you have to look at the rules often.
 
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Tim Thornhill
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I prefer Troyes, but Macao is also a great game.

One issue reguarding components of Macao:
I don't know what edition of Macao I have, but some of the cards are translated pretty poorly... meaning sometimes it's unclear how the cards are played or if they can be used multiple times per turn.
 
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Alan F.
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I'd buy The Castles of Burgundy
 
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Jeirod
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jmathias wrote:
First off. Love both games very much.

Buy Macao, if you don't mind feeling stressed and slightly out of control of your personal situation.

Buy Troyes, if you don't mind doing division in public.

In sincerity, buy both, you won't be unhappy with either.


Division in public, bahhahaha!!!

There's just too much goodness in both of these games to pass up. I'm thinking I'm going to have to fast for a week or sell lemonade on my front sidewalk to scrape up the cash to buy both. cool

Thank you everyone for all your input! All the comments have informed me as to who in my gaming group would be more apt to play each.
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Kevin Myers
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Good decision- It will be worth the fasting for a week to get both. I own both and play both often. They both are so unique and fun that it is difficult to choose which one to play when we only have time to play one more game. I guess I would turn to the data from bgg to determine who edges out the other over time- Troyes does rank higher overall - I believe this edge is do to the competive strategy Troyes has over Macao in a multiplayer game. My order of purchase was Troyes and then within about a month --I purchased- Macao as I found two dice games that fitted my niche for dice games yet brought in two different types of game play
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