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Subject: How to make your own expansion cards or ships! rss

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Greed Barabore
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Hello! This thread is being started because it occurred to me: there are a ton of discussions about various versions of existing cards, and many with example new ships (such as the popular Star Wars ones). What does not seem to exist is a means of determining if these variations are fair. Thus, this thread is being started to discuss ideas on how to build or alter ships and cards. Want to hear my own thoughts? Great!

Consider algebra. If A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C, right? Right! When we compare the ISN and Wretch ships side by side, we can begin to notice certain patterns. This ship has more shields, but less hull. That ship has a higher launch, but a lower activation. The simplest way to do this is simply write down the differences in each ship (ex. -1 hull, +1 shields), then equal out the differences based on the recurrent patterns.

You will end up with an exchange rate that balances any large, medium, or small ship with any other large, medium, or small ship. By way of proof, you should be able to add up to total value assigned (based on the exchange rate) to each stat, and the total should equal the same number for each ship size. Keep in mind that having a lower stat or a higher cost would refund some value instead adding to it.

Having already done that work for you, here is the exchange rate: "1 capacity = 1 upgrade = 1 additional weapon = 1 hero = 1 move = 1 hit location = 1/3 launch = 1/3 activate = 1/3 extra critical hit = 1/4 ignore ECM damage = 1/5 range = 1/5 shield = 1/5 hull = 1/6 charge = 1/9 attack = 1/10 strength = 1/14 weapons only shoot small ships". For example, if you increased the launch or activate cost by 3, you could increase the numbers of attacks by 1. If you wanted to lower the strength of an attack by 1, you could increase its range by 2.

Tomorrow, we will add some more information concerning the cards, including weapons and upgrades. We will also post the specific ship exchanges, so you can review the numbers yourself if you like.
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Sándor Kolok
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I beg your pardon, Sir, "we"???
Anyway, really good to see someone (else) still caring for this game, and
also trying to breathe life in a(n almost) dead forum.

As for your idea, I'm already in the midst of the process of "making" new ships, I think I'm gonna see how the stats I'd given to them (without any careful planning, like yours ) measure up to your equations.
The majority opinion seems to be that the Wretch have an edge built-in, which can be regarded as good or bad, depending on your taste and other things. I think it makes the game more interesting if it's a little bit imbalanced, so when I designed my new tactics card set, I tried to preserve that (hasn't been playtested, not even ready yet), to some extent, at least.
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Greed Barabore
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kolok wrote:
I beg your pardon, Sir, "we"???
Anyway, really good to see someone (else) still caring for this game, and
also trying to breathe life in a(n almost) dead forum.

As for your idea, I'm already in the midst of the process of "making" new ships, I think I'm gonna see how the stats I'd given to them (without any careful planning, like yours ) measure up to your equations.
The majority opinion seems to be that the Wretch have an edge built-in, which can be regarded as good or bad, depending on your taste and other things. I think it makes the game more interesting if it's a little bit imbalanced, so when I designed my new tactics card set, I tried to preserve that (hasn't been playtested, not even ready yet), to some extent, at least.


"We" is collective, because it is hoped others will join in the discussion, as you have The Wretch are merely better distributed, with build values focusing on direct combat. The popular term in other genres would be 'min-max' or 'munchkin'. There are still equal in total value, as will be further discussed later today. It is great to hear that you are trying to keep the factions unique and balanced differently; many other people building personalized expansions seem to just be turning all the ships into the same thing.
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Greed Barabore
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Hello again! Today we are going to cover some details about comparing ships. This will give you some more insight into the exchange formula, as well as allow you to check it for yourself should you happen to question its validity.

Let us start by comparing the F-47 Blue Hawks and the Red Tougu. The Blue Hawks have 1 higher range, 2 more miss locations, and 1 additional weapon. However, they also have an additional critical hit. The Red Tougu have 1 higher move and ignore ECM. Let us write all that down:

1 Range, 1 Critical, 2 Miss, 1 Additional Weapon = 1 Move, Ignore ECM

Now, the additional critical is actually a detriment, but it helps 'pay' for the other perks by making up some of the value. Let us instead look at it as two separate trade-offs:

1 Range = 1 Move, Ignore ECM
1 Critical = 2 Miss, 1 Additional Weapon

We have no reference for the values of each stat, but this gives us a starting point. We can also compare the F-51 Blue Sparrow to the Red Fuvu to get another pair of equations.

1 Activate = 1 Launch
3 Miss = 1 Launch

Wait! Now we have something to exchange! It is not much, but continuing the comparison will help flush out more consistencies. Let us skip right to the big ships, the ISN Everest and Vapor's Fate:

2 Hull = 2 Shield
1 Activate = 3 Capacity
1 Move = 1 Hero
1 Attack and 1 Capacity = 1 Strength
1 Attack and 1 Hero = 1 Strength
1 Ship Upgrade = 1 Additional Weapon
4 Hull and 2 Activate = Weapon can only target small ships

Keep in mind that hurtful numbers, such as a higher activation, are actually refunds of value. If it helps you to understand, treat them as negative numbers for the equations. We can see multiple trade-offs that are similar when comparing different ships, which indicates both a pattern and the beginnings of a universal exchange rate. For example, 1 Strength equals 1 Attack and either 1 Capacity or 1 Hero. Thus, 1 Capacity equals 1 Hero. When you finish by comparing all the ships, you again arrive at the exchange rate that was posted yesterday:

1 Capacity = 1 Ship Upgrade = 1 Additional Weapon = 1 Hero = 1 Miss = 1/3 Launch = 1/3 Activate = 1/4 Ignore ECM = 1/5 Shield = 1/5 Hull = 1/5 Range = 1/9 Attack = 1/10 Strength = 1/14 weapon only hits small ships

Hope you were able to keep up with that. Sorry we got off topic from what we said would be discussed, but it seemed important to understand the basics of the exchange before moving on. Tomorrow we will discuss the small solo ships and the medium ships. Discussion will include the dreaded feeling all share that the Wretch are favored... or are they? Hope to hear from you!
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Greed Barabore
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Hello once more, if you are still following Today we will discuss the final two ships: small solo and medium. But first, let us discuss the argument on every other thread here:

Vapor's Fate is overpowered! The Wretch are too strong! Is this true? Let us examine. In a fight between a full ISN fleet of standard ships, and a full Wretch fleet of standard ships, who would win? Well, with the higher ISN hull and range, such a fight would favor the ISN. However, many argue that it is the upgraded ships that tip the scales, especially with Vapor's Fate. In that discussion, you are introducing some abilities (on the ships), but not all abilities (the tactical cards). This creates a flawed comparison, but does now favor the Wretch. What about a fight with all abilities (upgraded ships and tactical cards)? Then it comes down to better strategy and tactics, making it a truly fun game. But, are all the ships even?

Okay, now onto the topic of the day. If you have been applying the exchange rate on your own, you will have found that all four squadrons have a value of 73, and the large capital ships have a value of 166. This makes sense, with the larger vessels having more value than smaller ships. You might also have noticed certain limits to the ships. Following are simple observations.

Squadron, Small, Medium, Large
Launch & Activate: 5, 5, 12, Over 15
Move: 5-6, 5, 4-5, 3-4
Shield & Hull: 5, 5, 9-10, Over 13
Hit Locations: 40-43, 40-41, 48-50, 56
Capacity: 0, 0, 4-6, 6-12
Weapons & Upgrades: 1-2, 2, 2-3, 3
Hero: 0, 1, 1-2, 3-5
Charge: 0, 0, 0, 0
Range: 1-2, 2-3, 2+, 4
Attacks: 1, 1, 1, 1-2
Strength: 1, 2, 2+, 2+

These are not mathematical, just basic easy observations. This provides us with a good base for making our own custom ships, as long as the total values still equal evenly. Exchanges can be made, simply by trading off one stat to gain its value towards another. However, for the sake of the game flow, you should still stay within the limits. Otherwise, you could min-max an expensive to launch but incredibly overpowered fighter.

What about the medium ships? Torrent has only 11 launch/activate, and the Barrage has 13 launch/activate. It should be 12, and a higher cost should refund 3 value, and a lower cost should increase 3 value. Since the lower and higher costs are outside the reasonable bounds, the refund or increase is only 2. This follows, as altering outside of limits should have some kind of 'tax'.

What about the small solo ships? For all the talk about Vapor's Fate being unfair, no one seems to notice that Chosh Ka has 1 more range than Rook's F-54, without an apparent exchange for another stat. Unfortunately, my group has not been able to ascertain why this is so. The Wretch might mathematically be equal with all the other ships, but it is actually the small solo ships that are uneven.

Now we have finished all the ships, having determined both the value of their stats and the appropriate ranges for each stat. Tomorrow we will move onto the ship upgrade cards, and maybe even have time to review additional weapons too. Hope to keep you interested!
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Greed Barabore
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Hello, should you happen to be still following and need such a greeting. Today we begin our discussion going into the cards, a rather precarious consideration. With the ships, you have clear numbers that can be directly compared to other ships through exchange and trade-off, as we have already done on previous days. Cards are different. Cards each have unique abilities, with set costs to use those abilities. It should follow that you could apply those abilities for those costs, but that without an exchange you would not be able to make your own. Is this true?

First, we would need to determine if indeed no exchange can be made. For now, let us stick with weapons, upgrades, and heroes. At the moment, we will steer clear of events. Events are pure abilities and costs, making it difficult to jump straight to them without a foot in the door on simpler ground. So, are there cards with shared abilities?

Yes: the weapons share similar stats to the ships, Erin Cho and Captain Vulchar both recover cards, ISN Transport Shuttle and Charles Yeboah both lower the cost to use other items, Captain Vulchar and Krall Draxus both have chance factors in their abilities, SR2 Twin Rocket Launcher and LR5 Nuclear Warhead both have a chance factor for follow-on effects, and so on. You can also find certain similarities on opposite ends of the spectrums, again with the SR2 and LR5 since the follow-on is different, but also with Krall Draxus who has a selective strength gain versus Bronson Skiles whose gain is non-selective.

Next, what new factors must be considered when determining an exchange? Although there are many new abilities whose value can be determined, the only real new factor is charge. Also consider that if something does not specifically call it a charge but it acts in the same way, as with Erin Cho needing to pay each time she draws a card, it would still have the same value. Having again spent a rather lengthy amount of personal time determining the math, here is a list of some guidelines to help in determining ability value. It should help in creating customized expansion cards.

Charge refunds 6 value per number
Chance loss of attack refunds 3 per potential loss
Chance un-damage costs 3 per die number
Card regain cost 3 per die number*
*thus a guaranteed card regain would cost 24, all 8 numbers
Adding strength costs the value of strength, 10 per number
Adding a move (or shifting) costs the value of move, 1 per number
Adding range costs the value of range, 5 per hex*
*keep in mind 'radius' is effectively just a range for effects
Non-selective gains cost the appropriate value, then add 2
Selective gains cost 1/2 the appropriate value, then add 1
Acting out of turn, or doubling actions, costs appropriate value x5
Expendability refunds a value of 20

Hopefully, this gives you a better understanding in creating your own cards. In all, we have managed to determine an exchange for ships, and now for cards as well. Tomorrow, we will share some of our own card creations. Maybe you will share yours too, eh?
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Sándor Kolok
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I'm not sure I get your train of thought, I think I've considerably slowed down with age... not that I used to be that brilliant to begin with
Anyway, are your "values" in this last post some kind of abstract units created to be able to compare cards directly?
If not, I have a hard time interpreting, e.g. "Card regain cost 3 per die number", how does that relate with Vulchar's ability and its energy cost? And all the rest as well.
What about explaining through an example for grinding it into the head of dunces like me? I'd most certainly appreciate it.
For example I'm planning a new ISN hero that would increase the number of upgrade cards a ship can receive by 1. How much should it cost in your system?
What about cards with multiple abilities, or even multiple abilities to choose from (e.g. this hero can do A, B, and C, but you decide which two).

I'll be happy to share "my" (lots of borrowed ideas, really) set of cards, as soon as they are finished. I'm not sure I'll have the time chechking their ad hoc stats according to your method, so there's gonna be a ton of potential for critique.

Some questions regarding the cards of yours generously posted in the other topic, if you don't mind:
Target On Scope - when you write range, you mean the move value of the ship, or the range of some of its weapons? So how this card exactly works?
Assassination - you may hate this, but isn't it too powerful? Assume the ISN ship has several heroes on it. Boarding gets attached, this alone means that the ship's doomed (no defense for Boarding related damages in the base game after Boarding attached). Then, for a mere 2 energies, you can remove all heroes.
Suicide Run - you state it's an event, but it's attached to a ship?

Otherwise, congrats for the significant amount of thinking you put into this. Looking forward to your next posts.

 
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Greed Barabore
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Hello, Sandor Kolok! Thank you for asking such great questions. We are going to pause on our normal discussion to first answer all of these
kolok wrote:
Anyway, are your "values" in this last post some kind of abstract units created to be able to compare cards directly?

Basically abstract. If you prefer another term, think of it as build or command points.

1 Value = 1 Capacity = 1 Ship Upgrade = 1 Additional Weapon = 1 Hero = 1 Move = 1 Miss Location = 1/3 Activate = 1/3 Launch = 1/4 ignore ECM = 1/5 Range = 1/5 Shield = 1/5 Hull = 1/6 Charge = 1/9 Attack = 1/10 Strength = 1/14 weapon only hits small ships

So, the primary weapon on the ISN Everest has a value of 58 (6x0 Charge + 5x4 Range + 9x2 Attack + 10x2 Strength). Its secondary weapon has a value of 33 (6x0 Charge + 5x2 Range + 9x3 Attack + 10x1 Strength - 14 only hits small ships).
kolok wrote:
... how does that relate with Vulchar's ability and its energy cost?

Captain Vulchar is able to regain cards, but there is a chance involved. "Card regain costs 3 per number" is the rule we determined yesterday. So, since Vulchar has 4 numbers on the die that allow his ability to work, then the value of that ability is 12 (4 numbers x 3 per number). That means Vulchar should cost a value of 12 to deploy. Looking at the exchange rate, we find that launch is a 1/3 ratio. That means that Vulchar should cost 4 (value 12 x launch 1/3). Does he? Yes indeed!
kolok wrote:
What about explaining through an example ...?

We are going to use the other Wretch hero for this one, Krall Draxus. Krall has two abilities; he has a chance to ignore damage, and he gains strength but only against heroes. That gives us the following:

Chance undamage costs 3 per number
Strength additions cost strength (10 per)
Selective gains cost 1/2 value +1

Krall has two numbers on the die that allow him to ignore damage, which is a value of 6 (2 numbers x 3 per number). He also gains 1 strength, which is a value of 10. However, unlike Bronson Skiles, this strength is selective in that it requires an opposing hero. Thus, the value is actually 6 (10 x 1/2 = 5, 5 + 1 = 6). So, his total value is 12 (6 for the chance undamage + 6 for the selective strength). This means his deploy cost should equal a value of 12. Does it? Yes! (12 value x 1/3 launch = 4).
kolok wrote:
I'm planning a new ISN hero that would increase the number of upgrade cards a ship can receive by 1. How much should it cost in your system?

Ship upgrades have a value of 1. The gain is non-selective, meaning the value should be +2, so it becomes 3. The deploy cost would then be 1 (1 cost x 3 from the exchange).
kolok wrote:
What about cards with multiple abilities, or even multiple abilities to choose from ...?

See the Krall Draxus example above. As long as the total value equals the deployment costs, there should be no issue.
kolok wrote:
Target On Scope - when you write range, you mean the move value of the ship, or the range of some of its weapons? So how this card exactly works?

Perhaps the wording was a bit confusing. Will take your advice and tweak it on the card. What it meant was that when an enemy ship ends its move, as is within range of at least one weapon, you would pay normal activation for your ship and attack. You are paying to attack, but it was not meant to be a full activation including a move.
kolok wrote:
Assassination - you may hate this, but isn't it too powerful?


Well, should we check the math? What is the average deploy cost of an ISN hero? There are three heroes, with costs of 4, 4, and 2. That makes an average of 3 and a third. Use the exchange rate to determine that the value would be 10 for an average hero (3.3 cost x 3). Our assassination card is dependent on a boarding party, which makes it selective. Applying the selective formula gives us a new value of 6 (10 x 1/2 = 5, 5+1 = 6). So, the cost to deploy Assassination should equal a value of 6, which would be a cost of 2 (6 x 1/3 = 2).
kolok wrote:
Assume the ISN ship has several heroes on it.

Sorry, but it is bad math to assume anything. Whether you use it on a ship with 3 heroes or 0 is a matter of tactics, not math.
kolok wrote:
(no defense for Boarding related damages in the base game after Boarding attached)

Funny you mention that. Made another expansion card that specifically counters boarding parties.
kolok wrote:
Suicide Run - you state it's an event, but it's attached to a ship?

Wretch Boarding Party attaches to a ship, and is not an upgrade. You could make Suicide Run an upgrade, but its creation was suppose to be thematic: the crew is pushing harder and literally killing themselves, which is an attitude and not an actual upgrade.

Wow, that was a lot to handle. Looks like we are done for the day. Hope to hear more from you and others. See you tomorrow!
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Sándor Kolok
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Wow, that's what I call an answer!
Multiple and exhaustive answers, that is
On the other hand, as your only apprentice here, I fully deserved that!
Just joking, thanks a lot, I definitely spare some time in the evening to read it through.
Also many thanks for sharing that card.
My job is presently make 3-5 new cards/day to be able to finish my 70 card custom deck (containing appr. 40 new cards) by the day my son's birthday comes. I think I've overdone it with all these new cards, but I just cannot let them go...
 
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Greed Barabore
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Hello, fellow Galaxians! Thank you for your patience. We finished all the basics on how to balance your cards. If you think of a new ability, you will just have to play test it and figure out what seems fair. Today, we start sharing our cards. Hopefully, you will share some of your own ideas too.

Wretch event: Collecting Bounties! Sure, the picture could have been a dozen other photos, but at least it matches the name. Our group play tested with this one, it seems to work relatively fairly: most ISN heroes cost more than 2, so the Wretch are making a profit. However, it was not a very popular card when we started choosing our own decks; most players ended up picking other cards besides this one for the 24 card deck.

Wretch event: Fresh Meat! If you do not recognize the creature in the picture, what kind of sci-fi fan are you? We all know the Commando Away Team is not nearly as intimidating as the Wretch Boarding Party. Though, more accurately, it is the Hijack card that is really a problem. Anyway, removing cards is not possible in the basic game, so the expansion includes cards for doing just that. Cards for the Wretch, anyway.

Wretch event: Nuclear Launch Detected! Tired of vaporized squadrons and crippled shields? Keep one of these in your hand and it will be a thing of the past! Oddly enough, our test players did not tend to choose this card either. Maybe their strategies simply elude me.

Wretch sabotage: Ramming Speed! This one was definitely popular, especially once players started to mix it with Spectral Resurgence, turning the Red Tougu into homing missiles. Yikes! Still, since it is a sabotage card and not an event, at least they cannot recycle it back into their hands.

Wretch event: Suicide Run! Originally, this stated "attach to a deploying ship", but after testing the wording was change. This way, you can deploy a ship, wait a turn for more energy, then pay the cost to attach Suicide Run. It has the same effect, but players complained about not being able to launch a ship and also pay the extra cost of the event. The card does turn the ship into a ticking clock, but most players agreed the pay-off was worth it. About half of them kept it when choosing their own deck.

Wretch event: Overwhelming Swarm! A popular tactic with our test players was to use this card with a squadron assault, typically doubling the total damage inflicted. It was a commonly selected card when they started choosing their own decks.

Wretch event: Swatting Flies! Saw a lot of evil grins when the test players first saw this card, though oddly enough never saw it actually played during the games. On its face, it seems powerful, but ISN do not move adjacent to attack, and moving adjacent to them triggers ECM. Most of the players eventually realized this, though a few still kept the card 'just in case'.

Those are a few of my Wretch cards! Tomorrow, you will see my ISN cards. If all goes well, the days after that will bring out the weapons, upgrades, and finally ship variants. Hope to hear from you.
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Sándor Kolok
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Hi, a quick technical question: exactly how have you printed your cards?
I'm thinking of having them printed by PrinterStudio.com, but they have 3 kinds of material for printing cards, and I simply do not know which one resembles physically most to the original cards.
 
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Greed Barabore
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Hello and greetings! We have another question to answer quickly before moving onto the ISN event cards. We printed our cards on either regular paper and then lamination or just normal cardstock. Our concern was more focused towards having them the right size rather than texture. Why? We just put them in card sleeves, shuffled them into the regular deck, and no one could tell the difference with the sleeves on. Not sure if that is the answer you wanted, but it is what we did. Now onto the cards!

ISN event: Command Support! If you discard a card, you can refund 1 energy. This card basically lets you discard it for 2 energy. It is a small tactical gain, but it is a gain nonetheless. In general, my expansion Wretch cards tried to focus on pure combat and the ISN cards focus on support or utility (much like the original cards and factions). This is a nice card, but not particularly spectacular. Our testers tended not to keep it, when given the choice.

ISN event: Effective Propaganda! When designing this card, it thematically seemed to lean towards the ISN. However, since it obviously just gives you a second chance to do some damage, the effect of the card leans more towards Wretch. Whatever the case, our testers loved this card and always included it in custom decks.

ISN event: Fire Everything! Some of the original cards, like Alert for ISN Torrent, are aimed to specific ships. To me, that adds a more realistic appeal, in that not every ship can do everything. So, this card was designed for the missile-toting Barrage. The Barrage only has 1 attack, so it is best used with additional weapons attached. Our testers tended to use this card with the seasoned or veteran versions of Barrage, and focused on eliminating pesky Wretch squadrons with the Barrage Flak Cannons.

ISN event: For the Good of Humanity! This card is only being included here because all of my cards are going to end up being posted. After testing with this, even the testers who used the card admitted it was too powerful. Sure, it has a higher cost. Sure, it is card dependent. Sure, the Commando Away Team is much weaker than Wretch Boarding Party. Still, an instant kill of any kind is a broken card.

ISN event: Play Dead! This card was inspired by the comic included with the game, when the Barrage team chooses to just watch the Wretch fleet move past. It provides a good strategic advantage; being able to take a breath. Our ISN testers always had this in the custom decks, using it to buy a turn and build more energy for high ISN launch costs. Our Wretch testers always exploited the text, which prevents attacks but not other abilities like Boarding Parties. Those devious Wretch!

ISN event: Send up the Reserves! This card was made to provide more additional tactical choices for the ISN, such as acting out of turn. Our testers had mixed feelings on this: some thought it useless as it does not react to opponent moves and makes launches cost 2 more, while others felt it gave a chance to throw off an opponent mentally which can be a huge advantage in strategy games. Mostly, it was not liked very much.

ISN sabotage: Self Destruct! Yes, this card was made as a counter to the Wretch "Ramming Speed". This one was intended to give a player an alternate choice when faced with a Boarding Party. It is not nearly cost effective enough to be used offensively like Ramming Speed, but can be used to provide one last punch for a dying ship. About half the testers kept this card when making custom decks.

ISN event: Target on Scope! All of our testers loved this card, and all of them had every copy in their custom decks. It actually made me wonder if this card might also be broken, providing too much of a combat advantage to the defensive and tactical ISN. Still, maybe the card just happens to be good. Your call if you want to include it in your own games.

Okay, well that is all of those ones. Tomorrow we will share upgrades and weapons for the Wretch, including our ideas for squadron cards. Share your own ideas too!
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Fabio Calzolari
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kolok wrote:
... as your only apprentice here...

False

The reality is that i'm not smart and not good in english as you are. So i sit silently in the dark corner of the room, reading and re-reading and trying to get the meaning. Keep asking questions, i'll be grateful


Seriously now:
G.B.: thanks for this great work.
The only thing i'd ask, to help the reader, is to "format" your tables and formulas in the "code" tag: while editing them is tedious, the result is that the text in "code" is monospaced, so everything is correctly indented and aligned.
 
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Sándor Kolok
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Hallo there (copyright OWK ),

So you were the one lurking with those thumbs ups
Usually that is what I also excel in, lurking, I mean
Anyway, now at least 3 of us still interested in this game, cool!
Now, my English could be called decent, especially if one considers that it was a full 3 days I spent on the soil of an English speaking country in my whole life... as for being smart, meh... I still wasn't able to get a grasp of GB's system, which he calls simple and easy...blush
But hey, nothing wrong with your English, come out of that dark corner, shoulder some of the reponsibility of asking stupid questions
Do you plan to have a go at making an expansion (for) yourself as well? Or already done it?
 
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Fabio Calzolari
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eheh
kolok wrote:

Do you plan to have a go at making an expansion

I'm lurking here (and in other Variants threads) to decide exactly this.
This game is a bit dull for my gaming group (we are strong Silent Death fans, and finding a game that "replaces" it is my personal task) and also unbalanced.
So i'd like to see a way to make it better: my programmer mind like the math approach GB has taken, i'll wait to see where he go and then try to see if i can mod existing ships (or add new ones) to make the game shine
 
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Sándor Kolok
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Okay then. I have no business trying to rival with mathematically crafted and thoroughly playtested expansions. My work is a still a project, a bunch of ideas thrown together (most of them picked up here in some form), unfinished, not playtested, and it also won't be, as I'm making this as a present for my son's birthday. (I'm not a gamer, have no group to test the ideas.)
Just how lucky I am that GB popped out of nowhere right now!

Anyway, just to show you that I'm not merely parasiting on other's hard work, I'll share some ideas here.
The new cards still have no cost, as I intuitively gave them higher prices than they would deserve acc. to GB's system, so back to the drawing board for me.

In add. to the new cards I plan to tweak the gameplay/rules a bit.
1. System specific hit locations (discussed throroughly here).
2. Connecting to this, heroes can be hurt and also killed.
3. Destroyed ships causing damage to adjacent ships.
4. Attached tactical cards are hidden (face down) 'til first use.
5. Breaking some original rules for squadrons.
6. Torpedoes (this comes entirely from the huge work of BGG user Ropya).
7. Might increase the starting hand size, the 10 limit'd stay.
8. New uses/rules for some existing cards (mainly ISN Commando-Wretch Boarding,and related powers.
9. Allowing for real carrier ships (ships can land on carriers).
10. Dual type tactics cards e.g. event/upgrade.
11. Well, the most sigificant, and I think risky new thing would be introducing a deck of new type of cards, working name for them is Command Cards. It would be a common deck for the two players, drawing 1-1 at the end of their turns. There'd be a hand limit of 3-4 cards.
These cards contain elements that could very well be simply part of the tactics cards, but in this way they may add a little bit of color to the gameplay, a little bit of different option. Some of them are meant to counterbalance the (un)luck factor to some extent, some others to increase interaction (can be played during opponent's action phase).
Geez, I've already written quite a lot, without substance, really, sorry for that guys. Anyway, to some cards then:
ISN:
1. Auto Defense System (U): Price dependent defense against boarding,
and a new type of Wretch boarding-like weapon.
2. Escape Pod (U/E): For saving max. 2 heroes from destroyed ships.
3. Kamikaze (E): thematically similar to GB's, but works rather diff.
4. Hero 1: +2 shield, +1 chosen weapon range, -1 cost for add. ws: choose 2 abilities out of this 3.
5. Hero 2: +1 upgrade card for the ship (+some very specific ability)
6. Hero 3: +1 heroes for all ships (+some very specific ability)
7. Hero 4: for a squadron ship: +1 pr. w. str after every fighter shot (max. 3), when hit by a fighter can shoot back, provides some defense against torpedoes
8. Repair Team (U/H): rep. max. 3 hull/turn, if on carrier, transported ships can also be repaired.
9. Carrier (U): like mentioned
11. Interceptor (U): for squads. +1 for ws str. and range (only against squads and small solo), +1 move, provides some defense against torpedoes
12. Shield gen. for squads (U): +1 shield
13. Suppl./NLS Engine (U): +1 move, or for pay, use in NLS mode (move 2x orig. move value in a straight line)
14. LR3 Homing Missile (W): for squads against squads/small solo.
15. LR4 Anti-ship Missile (W): for squads/small solo against medium+
16. LR2 Hydra Missiles(W): (a honorary nod to Macross/Robotech:-)
for squads/small solo. Packet/scatter missile system, with low str./missile, and a unique mechanism for determining hits.
17. Suppl. Fuel Tank (U): for squads, +1 or 2 move.
18. Med Team/Sick Bay (U/H): hurt hero can be healed.
19. Torpedo Launcher (W): for large+ ships (there gonna b 2 dreadnaughts
as well)
20-21. I found so cool some of GB's ideas that I already intend to adopt two: Play Dead (I prefer Possum:-) and Preemptive Strike(originally Target On Scope).
May I? Please, please, please!

OK, this turned out to be a huge post (size-wise), so I spare you from introducing my Wretch and Command Cards. If you still happen to be interested, I'll be happy to share them as well.
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Greed Barabore
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Hello to both of you! Wow, looks like our discussion is growing! Fabio, not entirely sure what you are referring to with 'codes' and 'tables'. Personally not very familiar with the internet would, and have only been posting to try and help others with making new cards or ships. Sandor, thank you for asking, and yes you may. That goes to anyone on here: you may use the exchange rate and expansion cards presented here. They are intended to help everyone in making fair and fun new cards. All that is asked is a 'thank you' or tip of the hat

To help you out, should you not already possess such a thing, here are two blank cards. Just put in a picture and some text to finish your own!

No idea if those are better or worse quality than other cards out there, but feel free to use them if you like. Unfortunately, have to call it a night early today. Will be back tomorrow to start sharing other cards. Hope to see you all again!
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Sándor Kolok
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Thank you, GB, for your permission, and also for continuing to help poor gamers in need (although I'm not one, gamer, that is ).
Sooo silence imlpies consent , here goes the Wretch contingent:

I begin with 2 more honorary nods to Robotech, and the 1st one may well be my most original idea here:
1. Joint Forces (U or E): an adjacent Fuvu and Tougu joins, and make up a new small solo ship. Stats under development (idea based on the EDF Alpha-Beta fighter combo in the 3rd Robotech series).
2. Super Plaxma Cannon (W): idea from the main gun of SDF-1 (Robotech).
My plan is to have the "normal" PC as the pr. w. of the new Wretch dreadnought, and this card'd upgrade it to an annihilating weapon, capable of wiping out solo ships with a single shot.
3. Tractor Beam (U/E): Pulls opp. ships into adjacency. Range of 3-4 hex.
4. Shield Disrupt (E): Disrupts all opp. shields for 1 turn, rng of 2-3 hex. Drawback: own ships within rng cannot use vecton disruptor.
5. Commmunication Jam (E): anti-Torrent alert card.
6. Anti-missile Def. System (U): price-dep. defense against missiles
7. Hyperdrive (U): similar, but swhat different to that ISN has.
8. Sensor Jam (E): chosen ship can only be approached to 3 hex this turn
9. Vecton Turbo (W): +1 str. for the VFD of Fuvus/Tougus'll also have it if attached to them. +1 str for the VFD card as well.
10.Torpedoes (W): 3 diff warheads (meshed ideas from Ropya and myself)
11.Destroidlets (W): sg like in The Revenge of the Sith. Launched from fighters, but used against solo ships: small droids wreaking havoc. Can have targeted effects against subsystems.
12. Teleport (E): may transfer a hero or some of the add. ws up to 6 hex
13. Interstellar Mothership (U): wretch carrier, combined with repairment ability in a single card
14. Hero 1: +1 for each and every stat of the ship
15. Hero 2: for squads as well! +1 str OR +1 rng for a chosen weapon, subject to change with each turn and ship
(forgot to mention, but both factions will have some heroes which will brake the original one fleet-one hero rule, this is the Wretch one)
16. Missile Decoy (U): for squads against missiles.
17. Shield Energy Transfer (U/E): between 2 adj. ships, once in a turn
18. Ship-to-fighter Missiles (W): for solo against small solo/fighters
19. Again, an idea from BG I liked: originally called Assassination.
I think I will modify it a little bit :-)

OK, that's it for now, looking forward to the new post of GB, and also to hearing from either of you (or from anyone else )
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Fabio Calzolari
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Greed Barabore wrote:
Fabio, not entirely sure what you are referring to with 'codes' and 'tables'.

Oh, nothing too exotic

I've "formatted" in a table one of your previous post:

Squadron, Small , Medium , Large
Launch & Activate: 5 , 5 , 12 , Over 15
Move: 5-6 , 5 , 4-5 , 3-4
Shield & Hull: 5 , 5 , 9-10 , Over 13
Hit Locations: 40-43 , 40-41 , 48-50 , 56
Capacity: 0 , 0 , 4-6 , 6-12
Weapons & Upgrades: 1-2 , 2 , 2-3 , 3
Hero: 0 , 1 , 1-2 , 3-5
Charge: 0 , 0 , 0 , 0
Range: 1-2 , 2-3 , 2+ , 4
Attacks: 1 , 1 , 1 , 1-2
Strength: 1 , 2 , 2+ , 2+

If you quote this post, you'll see how simple it is (the "Code" tag, using that "C" button on the toolbar when you write post here).

"Formatting" a table takes a bit more time, but it helps readability
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Hello to all! Thank you Fabio for the advise. Had tried to space out the table when typing it, but when it posted it all collapsed down again. Did not know there was a way to keep it 'as is'. That was my only table posted though, unless you want the exchange rate in table format for some reason. Now, onto the post of the day!

An obvious missing part of the original game that nearly everyone has noticed is the lack of squadron ship upgrades or weapons. Since there is no comparison in the basic deck, what value should those cards be given? The value of the solo small ship and squadron ships is 97 and 73 respectively, by count of the exchange rate. That gives us a percentage of about 75% for the squadrons versus the small solo. Could we apply the same rate to the weapons? The value of the solo weapons is 33, meaning the squadron weapons should be about a value of 24. Does that work in gameplay? After several test games, simply take my word that it does not. A value of 24, especially with being able to use it spread amongst three ships, is simply too strong. A better rate would be about a third, around the value of 13. Yes, this is arbitrary, but it is based on study of practical application. Having made some solo and squadron expansion cards, let me share them with you.

Wretch weapon: Minelayer! Thematically, it made sense that the Wretch did not have emplaced facilities, but would have to bring along any siege equipment they wanted to use. In testing, it never really panned out as useful being able to deploy mines: there are no choke points in open space, and no real reason to push through a choke point amongst asteroids. It was a fun idea to explore. Maybe future tests will have better luck.

Wretch weapon: Cannonball! Inspired by the comic, where in the Vapor's Fate fires a volley of large metal spheres to board the Everest. In gameplay, it sort of ruined the unique differences between the factions: Wretch no longer had to close distance and get in a brawl to board ships. Our testers always took this card, probably because it is too strong of a tactical advantage for the Wretch. Might keep it for future tests, but will likely abandon it.

Wretch weapon: Pulse Mine! The first attempt at creating a squadron weapon ignored bothering to give it abilities, instead simply having its values appropriately equal. Our testers were annoyed at the higher launch cost. Unfortunately, to boost a squadron weapon to a strength of 2 required it. The short range makes this a better choice for the Tougu than the Fuvu, though some testers risked ECM for the higher damage.

Wretch weapon: Vector Beam! A new concept we tried to introduce in our expansion was the idea of cumulative charge: paying more to get more. In this case, a higher charge could net a higher damage. Damage is expensive to upgrade on weapons, so most testers simply took the additional weapon 'as is'. With the higher range and lower launch, our testers preferred this weapon to the Pulse Mine.

Wretch upgrade: Grapple Launchers! It took some brainstorming to think of an idea on how Wretch could close distance (so as to employ Boarding Party) in a manner that was good for them and fair to the game. Thus, you now have the Grapple Launchers! Wretch ships tend to have higher damage, so not all testers were willing to trade off damage for closing distance. Still, it does provide another way to shift.

Wretch upgrade: Modular Shielding! A fairly straight-forward upgrade; pay for the card, and up your shields by 1. This really requires no explanation. Our testers quite naturally all took this card when picking custom decks.

Wretch upgrade: Phase Shifter! When making our expansion cards, we included an equal number of Wretch and ISN cards for each type of card. Our brainstorming resulted in one extra ISN ship upgrade, so we had to think of another Wretch upgrade too. Amongst our testers, none really thought this was a Wretch card; they thought it should have been an ISN card called 'Escape Pod' or something similar. Well, not everything can be perfect.

Wretch upgrade: Exterior Docking! To counter the lower capacity of Wretch ships, especially the Vapor's Fate, this card was made to help squadrons tag along for long rides. Our testers also used it to make a body shield of small ships in front of medium frigates. This was another favorite card amongst our testers when choosing their own decks. The only issue with this card is that, unlike the ISN, only one Wretch squadron can take upgrades.

Hope these continue to help you with ideas. Tomorrow we will introduce our ISN upgrades and weapons, as well as answering any more questions you have in the mean time. Have fun!
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Greed Barabore
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kolok wrote:
1. System specific hit locations (discussed throroughly here). 2. Connecting to this, heroes can be hurt and also killed.

The concept makes sense, but the locations should be pre-printed with the ship, much like the current critical hit location red start.
kolok wrote:
3. Destroyed ships causing damage to adjacent ships.

Why? That would damage close-in ships like Tougu or ones deploying Boarding Party. It seems like it might wreck the point of Wretch being up close and personal.
kolok wrote:
4. Attached tactical cards are hidden (face down) 'til first use.

When would you pay for them?
kolok wrote:
7. Might increase the starting hand size, the 10 limit'd stay.

Completely agree with you on that one.
kolok wrote:
9. Allowing for real carrier ships (ships can land on carriers).

Would you be refunded some launch cost to reload a ship? Would being reloaded give repairs?
kolok wrote:
10. Dual type tactics cards e.g. event/upgrade.

Like, you could use them as either one, or they act as both?
kolok wrote:
11. Well, the most sigificant, and I think risky new thing would be introducing a deck of new type of cards, working name for them is Command Cards. It would be a common deck for the two players...

Wow, is that your idea? It is a great one! Hmm, now you have me thinking about Command Cards.
kolok wrote:
1. Auto Defense System (U): Price dependent defense against boarding,

Made something like that with our expansion cards. Will post it tomorrow.
kolok wrote:
7. Hero 4: for a squadron ship: +1 pr. w. str after every fighter shot (max. 3), when hit by a fighter can shoot back, provides some defense against torpedoes

Well, you would have to first make a squadron that can accept heroes. Also, how would that work? Would the hero just be "Ace Pilots" or "Hardened Fighters"? Could the hero still be applied to solo ships?
kolok wrote:
13. Suppl./NLS Engine (U): +1 move, or for pay, use in NLS mode (move 2x orig. move value in a straight line)

Made a similar card to that too. Will also post tomorrow.
kolok wrote:
18. Med Team/Sick Bay (U/H): hurt hero can be healed.

This goes back to the critical locations hits. How do you determine if the hero is killed, or only hurt?
kolok wrote:
1. Joint Forces (U or E): an adjacent Fuvu and Tougu joins, and make up a new small solo ship.

Again, wow! If these are your ideas, you are very clever! If not... you are still awesome
kolok wrote:
3. Tractor Beam (U/E): Pulls opp. ships into adjacency. Range of 3-4 hex.

Made a similar card, the Grapple Launcher. Posted it already above.
kolok wrote:
7. Hyperdrive (U): similar, but swhat different to that ISN has.

Going to interrupt this one. You may of course do whatever you wish, but making mirror cards for both sides seems to ruin keeping them distinct faction. Similar cards is one thing, but copied cards seems to take away something. Just my opinion.
kolok wrote:
14. Hero 1: +1 for each and every stat of the ship

Without looking at my exchange rate, about how much were you planning on having that hero cost to deploy?
kolok wrote:
(forgot to mention, but both factions will have some heroes which will brake the original one fleet-one hero rule, this is the Wretch one)

What rule? Thought the rule was that each ship could only have one of each hero, not each fleet.
kolok wrote:
19. Again, an idea from BG I liked: originally called Assassination.
I think I will modify it a little bit :-)

Aw, what is wrong with my cards?
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Sándor Kolok
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Hallo GB,
First of all, thank you for reading through this long post and replying in detail. As you seem to tolerate long posts well, I'll do the same.
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
1. System specific hit locations (discussed throroughly here). 2. Connecting to this, heroes can be hurt and also killed.

The concept makes sense, but the locations should be pre-printed with the ship, much like the current critical hit location red start.

Yes, I agree. OK, there are several suggestions for this in these forums, I took one, started to modify it, it is under dev.
Sg like: subsystems: engines, weapons, shield gen., command deck (=heroes). 1st hit: decreased function, 2nd hit: seriously compromised function or complete failure. Need to work out the details.
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
3. Destroyed ships causing damage to adjacent ships.

Why? That would damage close-in ships like Tougu or ones deploying Boarding Party. It seems like it might wreck the point of Wretch being up close and personal.

Cause I'm stupid. Well let me be clear about several things. I thought I was but here I go. My ideas are just like that, ideas. They haven't come from carefully analyzing the game like yours, haven't been subjected to any playtesting at all. More to come: I'm not a game designer, heck, not even a seasoned game modifier, instead I'm a completely rookie game modifier, without any significant gaming experience under my belt. I'm just a family man who plays (relatively simple) boardgames with his beloved ones. That's why I'm so happy to have you come up just in time for me! I admire your approach and thank you for sharing all your work!
So back to this thing... it came simply 'cause I visualized exploding ships, and thought it would be kinda "realistic", if sg like this would apply. Didn't think over that it wd hurt the Wretch more, as they need adjacency more. Maybe I subconciously wanted to punish them for that bloody boarding... maybe just watched too much Star Wars.
And you may have noticed, a lot of my ideas are like the above, kind of naive-romantic-cinematic, like this: hey, that wd be cool, let's do that! Without careful analysis... I told you there gonna be a ton of potential for critique...
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
4. Attached tactical cards are hidden (face down) 'til first use.

When would you pay for them?

Like normally. This rule of course depends on mutual trust.
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
9. Allowing for real carrier ships (ships can land on carriers).

Would you be refunded some launch cost to reload a ship? Would being reloaded give repairs?

As I told you your system made me realize that you just cannot rely on your gut instinct to price your cards. So presently none of my cards have a price. I maybe will end up having to kindly ask you to help me with that, but first I'll try to do my homework (understanding your system) The ISN have two separate cards: one for allowing carrier function, and one for hull repairment (I skipped a lot of detail in my previous post, 'cause it was very long even this way...) The Wretch have a single card which also allows carrier f., is superior in repairing capability (shield+hull; intended to be "thematic"), and I thought that it should be very expensive...
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
10. Dual type tactics cards e.g. event/upgrade.

Like, you could use them as either one, or they act as both?

Under development, but I thought definitely for single function, which either should be declared on first use and stay that way, or wd be interchangeable during the game, to the advantage of the player. A side question: how would you price/quantify a card like this (2nd version)?
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
11. Well, the most sigificant, and I think risky new thing would be introducing a deck of new type of cards, working name for them is Command Cards. It would be a common deck for the two players...

Wow, is that your idea? It is a great one! Hmm, now you have me thinking about Command Cards.

Thank you, Sir, AFAIK it is. I'm so happy I can also contribute in a meaningful way!
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
1. Auto Defense System (U): Price dependent defense against boarding,

Made something like that with our expansion cards. Will post it tomorrow.

Looking forward to it!
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
7. Hero 4: for a squadron ship: +1 pr. w. str after every fighter shot (max. 3), when hit by a fighter can shoot back, provides some defense against torpedoes

Well, you would have to first make a squadron that can accept heroes. Also, how would that work? Would the hero just be "Ace Pilots" or "Hardened Fighters"? Could the hero still be applied to solo ships?

With this I intend to break the original rules. First, I did not like the idea of the game itself continuously breaking its own rules (e.g. the Ripper Cannon, etc.) Then, I really came to like it, now, maybe I've become "unleashed" too much... So this hero wd break 2 rules: it could be attached to a squadron (not to a solo), and for only one ship. Again, not the result of careful analysis, just an idea, which may be stupid gameplay-wise... Ace Pilot, I almost used exactly that one, but (human) heroes have names, so I named him. I inteded to use the existing squadrons. May have to scrap, if you say crap...:-)
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
1. Joint Forces (U or E): an adjacent Fuvu and Tougu joins, and make up a new small solo ship.

Again, wow! If these are your ideas, you are very clever! If not... you are still awesome

Thank you again, I must admit it feels good, tho' I'm not used to receiving this much praise As for the idea, in this particular instance I'm pretty confident to say, that it is exclusively mine, indeed. It comes from Robotech (are you familiar with it?)
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
3. Tractor Beam (U/E): Pulls opp. ships into adjacency. Range of 3-4 hex.

Made a similar card, the Grapple Launcher. Posted it already above.

Saw that, appreciated that!
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
7. Hyperdrive (U): similar, but swhat different to that ISN has.

Going to interrupt this one. You may of course do whatever you wish, but making mirror cards for both sides seems to ruin keeping them distinct faction. Similar cards is one thing, but copied cards seems to take away something. Just my opinion.

Yeah, I agree, but thematically sometimes just does not make sense if one of the factions does not have sg, which the other has (e.g. in this case). The other thing was that I simply do not have enough creativity to come up with so many different things
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
14. Hero 1: +1 for each and every stat of the ship

Without looking at my exchange rate, about how much were you planning on having that hero cost to deploy?

Well, by now you know: without careful analysis... Well, this was really intended to be a "superhero", or a "supervillain" rather, so it was meant to be super expensive as well... but it should be absurdly expensive, right? I feel like it's broken...
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
(forgot to mention, but both factions will have some heroes which will brake the original one fleet-one hero rule, this is the Wretch one)

What rule? Thought the rule was that each ship could only have one of each hero, not each fleet.

I must respectfully say that you had that one wrong. It is your entire fleet in which you can have a given hero in a single copy They are persons, not clones, you know
Quote:
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
19. Again, an idea from BG I liked: originally called Assassination.
I think I will modify it a little bit :-)

Aw, what is wrong with my cards?

Absolutely nothing, o.c., your cards are great, it just seems that I *always* have to modify sg, even if it's only the name, maybe they more feel like mine this way, a little bit...
Names do not matter anyway, 'cause I'll have to translate everything to Hungarian, in fact I had to translate all that I mentioned back to English to be able to post it here...
OK, I hope you had the patience again, looking forward to your next post! Hopefully as soon as tomorrow, and I mean it!!!cooldevil
 
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Hello, and thank you all for keeping up with the feedback. Will be posting early today, and will be posting late tomorrow. As always, answering questions comes first.
kolok wrote:
Cause I'm stupid.

There is no need for that. We are brainstorming ideas and helping each other. Nothing is gained by being negative.
kolok wrote:
So back to this thing... it came simply 'cause I visualized exploding ships, and thought it would be kinda "realistic"

Unlike movies, space has no oxygen with which to fuel big explosions. Ships have some oxygen on board, but surprisingly little. Firefly was a good show at being accurate with what happens in space (no sound, lack of big fireworks, etc.)
kolok wrote:
I maybe will end up having to kindly ask you to help me with that, but first I'll try to do my homework

Alright, if you gave me list of what you want a card too do, could figure out some numbers.
kolok wrote:
A side question: how would you price/quantify a card like this (2nd version)?

Depends on the text of the card. If it was a solo weapon, would give it a value 33 and balance the numbers. If it was for a squadron, would give it a value 13 and balance the numbers. If it was an event, would give it no value except what was paid for launch and charge, then balance the numbers.
kolok wrote:
May have to scrap, if you say crap...:-)

My word is no legal authority to keep you from doing what you want to do. If you figure out the details to your liking, and if it makes the game more fun for you, go ahead and do it!
kolok wrote:
It comes from Robotech (are you familiar with it?)

No, but do have a passing familiarity with the idea of mechas. Now, onto more cards!

ISN weapon: Railgun Platform! This card was the first one we designed that had a cumulative charge. We wanted to give the ISN a stronger weapon to counter the Wretch, but still let them have the higher range typical of ISN. Unfortunately, it meant we had our hands in too many cookie jars, and the card ended up being too expensive to use in play. Most of our testers encouraged us to keep making cards, but they did not like this one.

ISN weapon: Helix-1 Prototype Missile! Erin Cho is really only useful for recovering LR5 Nuclear Warhead. So, we thought up some ideas for other disposable weapons for the ISN to get back. Our group did not want to simply repeat existing cards. Our favorite idea was some type of homing missile; a one shot fire-and-forget. It has great range and a guaranteed hit, but the trade-off is low damage and expendability. Less than half the testers kept the card in custom decks.

ISN weapon: Spent Fuel Torpedo! When our testers compared this with the Wretch Pulse Mine, they asked why the Wretch weapon had a higher cost to deploy. Charge has a value of 6, but range only has a value of 5. With this card, you are losing one value every time you pay to increase the range. If you paid the entire charge, the value would appropriately balance. Very few of the testers were willing to put this in their custom decks, but most did not.

ISN weapon: Tail Gunner! Our testers were curious about the limitations on this weapon, but quickly adapted. Most of them started using it for squad-on-squad dogfights, with enemy squadrons providing numerous second targets to choose. Keeping with ISN trends of low damage but low costs, this weapon is not very powerful. All of our testers kept this card in customized decks.

ISN upgrade: Officer Quarters! Sandor mentioned a similar idea in a previous post. The exact value of this card is 4, and the payment is only value 3. It is a bit of rounding, but it helped in the gameplay. Originally, none of the players saw the point of a 1 for 1 trade-off. A small tweak gave them the profit they wanted. This is a case of gameplay trumping math, which sometimes you just have to do
ISN upgrade: NLS Drive! Another idea Sandor seems to share (we sure do seem to think alike). This card was built to help sluggish ISN ships move around. As a trade-off, we thought it was fair to disable weapons for the jump. It makes sense thematically; you need to power diverted to engines. It also makes sense in the game; it would hardly be fair for heavy guns of capital ships to suddenly be next door to an enemy fleet. Once you get caught in the usual close fighting of this game, this card becomes much less useful. Well, except for retreating.

ISN upgrade: Zero-G Guns! Our group does not like mirrored cards; cards that do exactly the same thing for both sides. So, we decided not to simply copy Fresh Meat from the Wretch events. This card was inspired by the comic book, when Erin Cho takes large guns to clear off the intruders from Everest. It kills the huge Wretch advantage of Boarding Party, but as a trade-off it is card dependent on Erin Cho.

ISN upgrade: Flares and Decoys! When examining the LR5 Nuclear Warhead, and when making the Helix-1 Prototype Missile, we found out that there is a lot of value you can reclaim from making something disposable. We also knew we wanted some kind of countermeasure built into the squadrons to make them more like real fighters. The end result was Flares and Decoys. In a heated battle, keeping a full squadron at top strength for another turn can be the pivot point that wins the game. Our testers always kept this card in there custom decks.

It will be a bit, but will be back tomorrow. Have a great weekend!
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Sándor Kolok
Hungary
Budapest
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Hi to everyone, I'll try to keep it short.
Greed Barabore wrote:
Hello, and thank you all for keeping up with the feedback. Will be posting early today, and will be posting late tomorrow. As always, answering questions comes first.
kolok wrote:
Cause I'm stupid.

There is no need for that. We are brainstorming ideas and helping each other. Nothing is gained by being negative.

Okay, I meant it a Cyrano-esque way What I really meant was that I failed to properly think through the effects/consequences of the proposed rule wd exert on the gameplay. Quite dumb, if you ask me...
Agree on your point on brainstorming, also for being positive, but I reserve the right to bash myself whenever I want to.
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
So back to this thing... it came simply 'cause I visualized exploding ships, and thought it would be kinda "realistic"

Unlike movies, space has no oxygen with which to fuel big explosions. Ships have some oxygen on board, but surprisingly little. Firefly was a good show at being accurate with what happens in space (no sound, lack of big fireworks, etc.)

Yeah, space movies stupid, I know. But I still think that a (nuclear) explosion wd result in debris flying away centrifugally, potentially damaging everything around. My proposed rule can still be broken gameplay-wise though.
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
I maybe will end up having to kindly ask you to help me with that, but first I'll try to do my homework

Alright, if you gave me list of what you want a card too do, could figure out some numbers.

You're extremely kind and generous! My 1st priority to make my cards and ships, try to "stat" them myself, and maybe ask you to review/comment it. My biggest enemy is time...
Greed Barabore wrote:
kolok wrote:
May have to scrap, if you say crap...:-)

My word is no legal authority to keep you from doing what you want to do. If you figure out the details to your liking, and if it makes the game more fun for you, go ahead and do it!

Yeah, but you do have a much deeper understanding of the game, and the last thing I want is to flood the game with broken cards and rules. So I take seriously what you have to say.

OK, have to go now, I'll have no time now to comment the new cards, I liked them mostly!


 
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Sándor Kolok
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Hallo to everyone, and especially to GB, as I finally was able to start to get to know your system, and I have a couple of questions. I'll try to be concise and short, as much as possible. I will use old-fashioned quoting (copying text and putting it btw quot. marks), because I will quote from multiple posts of yours.

1. I do not fully understand this following def. What does it exactly mean? Example wd enlighten me, I guess.
"Chance loss of attack refunds 3 per potential loss"
Is it how the LR2 TWIN ROCKETS' weakness affects the value of the card?

2. Analyzing ship stats. I quote a longer passage from you:
"Launch & Activate: 5, 5, 12, Over 15"
and
"What about the medium ships? Torrent has only 11 launch/activate, and the Barrage has 13 launch/activate. It should be 12, and a higher cost should refund 3 value, and a lower cost should increase 3 value. Since the lower and higher costs are outside the reasonable bounds, the refund or increase is only 2. This follows, as altering outside of limits should have some kind of 'tax'."
First, I do not understand exactly what you refer to as launch and activate. The numbers (11, 13) are the respective launch values for the veteran Torrent and Barrage, but they (as every ship) has a diff. value for activate, so??? I do not understand the quoted paragraph in its entirety either. What should be 12, and why should it be? If I got you right, you said that with simple observation you got some limits of values a certain ship can have for its certain stats, so comes the first quoted line, and that 12 value. If you got that value by simply observing/comparing existing ship stats, I do not understand how one can say that 11 is low and outside, and 13 is too high and outside? How that 12 came to be at all when we have these two ships, that has 11 and 13? HELP!

3. Squadrons. You told us about the risk of introducing too strong squads. I obviously love squads. They are cool. I planned a lot of add. weaponry for them, as you could see. When I planned these I had real fighters and their weaponry in mind (you also mentioned sg like that), but failed to think through the consequences (which you, on the other hand, have already playtested). So, my question is, if one still insist on having his squads (in one faction) a little more powerful than they should be, isn't it possible to countebalance this with letting other kinds of ships to be more powerful in the other faction? To put in an other way, and using your exhange rate value, isn't the total value of the entire fleet that should be appr. equal, if one doesn't want to completely ruin the balance of the game?
By the way, how the total value of squads calculated? Doesn't one have to multiply everything with 3 except for attack or strength, launch, activate, and cards?
In the meantime I also found out that I cannot even calculate the total value for solo ships... I tried it with VF (vet.), and got 189 instead of 166.
By the way #2, may I ask your final verdict, if you consider the base game, as it is (ships with all their spec. abilities+tactics card), balanced?

4. How do you calculate a value for powers/additions in the game, that are dependent on other factors, like the presence of a ship, adjacency etc. If one wants to make new abilities like that, be it cards or ship abilities, one somehow should be able to approximate their values, no?
Connecting to the point before, there seems to exist a relatively complex situation with the pr. w. strength of the ISN squads as they can be +1 by simply adjacent to the Rook. Also can be even more powerful for a turn with the appropiate card. One can argue that by the adj. requirement the agility of the squads is sacrificed, but I can imagine many situations, when that does not seem to be a big loss, and in exchange, you can have 6 ships with +1 pr.w. srenght. You can even add the Torrent to that mix, and you have a pretty darn good "cocktail" (it's a "published" ISN strategy to do this )

OK, I will surely have more questions as I'll progress with making my cards, but that's it for now.
I'd be highly grateful if you could help me with these, GB.
Ooooor... should anybody else just happen to lurk around here by coincidence (maybe, who knows, from Italy or something like that), and got a better understanding of GB's system, please do not hesitate to intervene!
All the best to everyone!
 
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