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Subject: Pheremones Questions rss

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Ben Finkel
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Pheromones
Program: Virus
Cost: 2, 1 MU
Criminal
2 influence
X recurring credits.
Use these credits during runs on HQ. X is the number of virus counters on Pheromones.
Whenever you make a successful run on HQ, place 1 virus counter on pheromones.
______________________

When you install Pheremones with Grimoire out, may you you choose to acquire the virus counter before acquiring the installation's recurring credits, thus allowing you to have 1 recurring credit for an HQ run this turn?

How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?
 
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William Frank
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Azeltir wrote:
Pheromones
Program: Virus
Cost: 2, 1 MU
Criminal
2 influence
X recurring credits.
Use these credits during runs on HQ. X is the number of virus counters on Pheromones.
Whenever you make a successful run on HQ, place 1 virus counter on pheromones.
______________________

When you install Pheremones with Grimoire out, may you you choose to acquire the virus counter before acquiring the installation's recurring credits, thus allowing you to have 1 recurring credit for an HQ run this turn?

How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?


1) Yeah. Grimoire says you may place one virus counter on a virus when you install it. Pheremones is (are?) a virus. Hence, you get a bonus out of the gate.

2) I agree with your assumption. Sneakdoor says to treat a successful run on Archives as a run on HQ, so once you've treated it that way, Pheremones says "hi there!"
 
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Ben Finkel
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scifantasy wrote:
1) Yeah. Grimoire says you may place one virus counter on a virus when you install it. Pheremones is (are?) a virus. Hence, you get a bonus out of the gate.


There's no argument from me that you get the virus counter - my question is if the recurring credit is available. You get recurring credits at the start of a turn and when you install a card. The timing of that effect isn't really clear, though - can you choose to get those credits after dealing with other "whenever you install" effects?
 
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Mat Nowak
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Azeltir wrote:
When you install Pheremones with Grimoire out, may you you choose to acquire the virus counter before acquiring the installation's recurring credits, thus allowing you to have 1 recurring credit for an HQ run this turn?

Recurring credits only replenish when your turn begins. If you install Pheromones with a Grimoire out, then Pheromones will receive 1 virus counter, and therefore, 1 recurring credit which you can immediately use. (If you play a Surge on Pheromones then those 2 credits will be available right away as well).

Quote:
How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?

Correct. You are still making a run on Archives. Once it is successful that's when you treat it as a successful run on HQ and can then use any of Pheromone's credits.
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William Frank
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Azeltir wrote:
scifantasy wrote:
1) Yeah. Grimoire says you may place one virus counter on a virus when you install it. Pheremones is (are?) a virus. Hence, you get a bonus out of the gate.


There's no argument from me that you get the virus counter - my question is if the recurring credit is available. You get recurring credits at the start of a turn and when you install a card. The timing of that effect isn't really clear, though - can you choose to get those credits after dealing with other "whenever you install" effects?


...that's a good point, actually...my bad.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Mateui wrote:
(If you play a Surge on Pheromones then those 2 credits will be available right away as well).


Wait, how is that the case? How are those virus coutners "available for use" if the recurring credits haven't refreshed yet?
 
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Mat Nowak
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Azeltir wrote:
Mateui wrote:
(If you play a Surge on Pheromones then those 2 credits will be available right away as well).


Wait, how is that the case? How are those virus coutners "available for use" if the recurring credits haven't refreshed yet?

Recurring credits are available as soon as you install the card.

Here's the explanation from the FAQ:
Quote:
Recurring Credits
Recurring credits are placed on a card when the card becomes
active, and can be used immediately. Recurring credits do not
stack; a player only replaces recurring credits up to the number
listed on the card when his or her turn begins.
 
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William Frank
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Mateui wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
Mateui wrote:
(If you play a Surge on Pheromones then those 2 credits will be available right away as well).


Wait, how is that the case? How are those virus coutners "available for use" if the recurring credits haven't refreshed yet?

Recurring credits are available as soon as you install the card.

Here's the explanation from the FAQ:
Quote:
Recurring Credits
Recurring credits are placed on a card when the card becomes
active, and can be used immediately. Recurring credits do not
stack; a player only replaces recurring credits up to the number
listed on the card when his or her turn begins.


Exactly--which means that if you Surge the Pheremones, you don't instantly get two more recurring credits. Surge, after all, is a separate action, taken on its own click.
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TK Number 3
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Mateui wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
When you install Pheremones with Grimoire out, may you you choose to acquire the virus counter before acquiring the installation's recurring credits, thus allowing you to have 1 recurring credit for an HQ run this turn?

Recurring credits only replenish when your turn begins. If you install Pheromones with a Grimoire out, then Pheromones will receive 1 virus counter, and therefore, 1 recurring credit which you can immediately use. (If you play a Surge on Pheromones then those 2 credits will be available right away as well).

Quote:
How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?

Correct. You are still making a run on Archives. Once it is successful that's when you treat it as a successful run on HQ and can then use any of Pheromone's credits.


Sneakdoor is only a run on HQ after successful, so while you would gain a counter on Pheremones, you can't use the credits during the run. Which I guess begs the question, can you use those recurring credits to trash cards accessed from HQ? What is "during a run?"

Edit: Actually reading it again, you should be able to use them to trash cards in HQ.
 
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Sohum Banerjea
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Azeltir wrote:
How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?


Actually, I don't think you can pay off Workshop cards. Sneakdoor triggers when the run is successful, and after that, there are no additional paid ability windows.

You can use them to trash, however.
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Richard Linnell
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I think the real question is whether or not "Recurring Credits" printed on a card is an ability that is triggered when you install that card, or whether it is part of the installation. The point being that if it is an ability triggered by the installation, that lumps it into the same category as Grimoire's ability to add a virus token, and the player can choose which occurs first. If it is part of the installation, then you get the recurring credits first and add the virus token afterwards, meaning that you don't start with a credit.
 
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William Frank
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solidhavok wrote:
I think the real question is whether or not "Recurring Credits" printed on a card is an ability that is triggered when you install that card, or whether it is part of the installation. The point being that if it is an ability triggered by the installation, that lumps it into the same category as Grimoire's ability to add a virus token, and the player can choose which occurs first. If it is part of the installation, then you get the recurring credits first and add the virus token afterwards, meaning that you don't start with a credit.


Mm. I agree. And my reading of the rule on recurring credits above would lead me to think that the card becomes active (getting the credits), and _then_ that Grimoire places a counter, unfortunately.
 
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Loren B
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sohum wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?


Actually, I don't think you can pay off Workshop cards. Sneakdoor triggers when the run is successful, and after that, there are no additional paid ability windows.

You can use them to trash, however.


I think the most recent FAQ supports this reading. The last chance to use "paid abilities" is step 4.3. The run is "considered successful" at step 4.4. So there will be now Phermone/PW snazziness of a Sneakdoor Beta run...
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Lluluien
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lorenbr wrote:
sohum wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
How does this interact with Sneakdoor Beta? My assumption is that you can't use these credits for any costs before the run is successful, but once Sneakdoor Beta hops you over to HQ, may you use these credits i.e. for trashing cards or paying off Personal Workshop cards?


Actually, I don't think you can pay off Workshop cards. Sneakdoor triggers when the run is successful, and after that, there are no additional paid ability windows.

You can use them to trash, however.


I think the most recent FAQ supports this reading. The last chance to use "paid abilities" is step 4.3. The run is "considered successful" at step 4.4. So there will be now Phermone/PW snazziness of a Sneakdoor Beta run...


No, but there will be Pheremone/Personal Workshop snazziness in using Sneakdoor 3 times to put 3 counters on it, then running HQ once a turn and bouncing off the nearest ETR routine after you spend your 3 credits on Personal Workshop stuff until they wipe counters.

Now every Runner with PW can be Gabe too! I just died a little inside
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Yeah -- I feel like any "use these credits during a run" card will have strong synergy with Personal Workshop.
 
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Ben Finkel
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I still don't think the Grimoire question got answered, and Mateui just increased my confusion.

If I understand correctly, recurring credits get placed on a card at exactly two points: when the card is installed/rezzed, and at the beginning of the turn. It doesn't matter if the card's recurring credit value changes during the turn, as more credits won't be placed there until start of turn.

It would follow that Surge doesn't have a benefit on the turn you use it, as you don't get the credits until your following turn. It's still unclear to me if Grimoire enables Pheremones to have a recurring credit on it when Pheremones is installed.

Additionally, I remember something that came up in the Net Police discussion: that if the Runner's Link decreases, Net Police's credits don't drop, but rather are simply not refreshed. I assume that's the case with Pheremones, too - that if Pheremones has, say, 4 credits on it and 4 virus counters, and the Corp wipes virus counters, Pheremones still has 4 credits on it until the Runner uses them. Correct?
 
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Jeremy Larner
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I would say that placing recurring credits is part of the install action, and so Pheremones will never gain any credits until the turn after it is installed.

I agree that Pheremones credits can be used to trash cards (and for combating Ash/Bernice traces) during Sneakdoor runs, but not before then.

Regarding virus wipes, I think that as written the credits stay until they are used, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they add a FAQ saying that recurring credits are added or removed at start of turn.
 
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Ony Moose
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Yes, I don't think the rules specify what to do with X Recurring when X is less than the number of credits already on it. Credits are replenished at the start of the player's turn, but does that included removing credits? One for Lukas I think.
 
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Mat Nowak
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Sorry, I confused myself earlier!

In the case of recurring credits where the value is an X, X is set at the time it is referenced. So since recurring credits are given when a card is installed and are replenished at the beginning of a player's turn, X is setting itself to however many virus counters are on Pheromones at that time. (Upon Install, and Beginning of Runner Turn)

So, Surging Pheromones will have no effect on the credits you can use off of it until your next turn when the X value is rechecked.

Quote:
Recurring Credits
Recurring credits are placed on a card when the card becomes
active, and can be used immediately. Recurring credits do not
stack; a player only replaces recurring credits up to the number
listed on the card when his or her turn begins.


Seems to me however if you have a Grimoire installed then you would actually receive 1 recurring credit onto Pheromones right away since both the placing of the 1 virus counter and placing of the recurring credits upon install would happen at the same time and in that case the runner would choose the order of their resolution (as per the rules about Simultaneous Effects on page 22 of the rulebook, mainly "When one or more abilities have the same timing trigger or can be triggered at the same time, each player chooses the order his own abilities trigger.")

Quote:
Yes, I don't think the rules specify what to do with X Recurring when X is less than the number of credits already on it. Credits are replenished at the start of the player's turn, but does that included removing credits? One for Lukas I think.

I asked him about this before. As the rules already state about recurring credits, they are only replaced up to the number listed on the card, so if X becomes smaller than the number of recurring credits on the card, you wouldn't remove any of them, you simply would set the X to the new value, so if you end up using any of those credits, on your future turn they would only be replenished up to the X value.
 
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Ben Asher
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+1 for grimoire gives pheromones 1 recurring credit on the turn pheromones is installed. Grimoire's virus token is added as part of the install action, and thus would be counted during the 'creation' of the recurring credits.
 
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Jeremy Larner
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Good to know there's an official answer about reductions in X, and it makes the card significantly stronger (and wiping virus counters less attractive).

However, I still agree with the previous two posters about Grimoire. I don't think placing recurring credits is a triggered effect, nor is adding a virus counter from Grimoire part of the install action.

Recurred credits are placed as part of the card becoming active (which is part of the install action). This necessarily occurs before Grimoire can trigger, and therefore recurring credits will at the earliest be added to Pheromones the turn after it's installed.
 
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I got a response from Lukas regarding Grimoire and Pheromones. Pheromones does not start with a credit, since the virus counter is not present at the time of install.

Here was my question:

skiesbleed wrote:
As a Runner, if I have Grimoire installed and then proceed to install Pheromones, will Pheromones start with 1 recurring credit that can be used immediately?

Grimoire says: "Whenever you install a virus program, place 1 virus counter on that program." The rules for recurring credits say: "Recurring credits are placed on a card when the card becomes active, and can be used immediately." These seem like they might be simultaneous effects, but I'm not sure if becoming active and being installed happen at the exact same time.

Are these simultaneous, allowing me to place the Grimoire counter before the recurring credits are placed, thus allowing me to have 1 recurring credit on Pheromones to spend immediately?


And his response:

Lukas Litzsinger wrote:
A card becomes active immediately when it is installed, so by the time you place the virus counter on the Pheromones, it is too late to get the recurring credit. The card has to be installed before you can trigger an ability off of it being installed.
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Brian Moore
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Excellent. Thanks for the submission.
 
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