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Subject: usefulness of some cards rss

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jay cutler
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I'm playing a lot online, but in the basic set I can not understand the usefulness of the canchellor .. why I should put the cards in the deck instead of discarding them?
There are some other cards ambiguous also in the set intrigue? Monday will receive them and I want to clarify all doubts before


 
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Chris Schumann
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Discard your deck -> buy a card -> clean up, discarding everything -> shuffle -> draw a new hand.

Suddenly, the card you just bought could be in your next hand. Handy, but not super powerful, so along with the +2 coin, the card only costs 3.
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bodybuilder wrote:
I'm playing a lot online, but in the basic set I can not understand the usefulness of the canchellor .. why I should put the cards in the deck instead of discarding them?
There are some other cards ambiguous also in the set intrigue? Monday will receive them and I want to clarify all doubts before
Chancellor says (in addition to the +$2), you can flip your deck into your discard pile. Some of the benefits of doing so include...

--If you purchased a good card $5 card, or Gold, normally you'd need to wait until you reshuffle your deck to get access to it. Now, since you flip your deck into the discard pile, you reshuffle IMMEDIATELY and get to those good card(s) sooner, instead of having to wait another 1 to 4+ turns.
--If you just used those good cards and then play a Chancellor, flip your deck again to access those cards sooner again due to the forced reshuffle

Many times, close games result from being "1 turn behind/ahead", so this can kickstart your engine and be the difference between winning and losing.

It certainly is NOT one of those "set and forget" cards, as it's best used when you're paying attention to the state of your deck and what cards have gone by.

For kicks and giggles....
I played in a 4p game with Prosperity, Platinum+Colony, and several other exps. The guy who skillfully utilized Chancellor was able to grab Grand Markets, Gold, and Platinum much faster than the rest of us. By the time I bought a Colony (closer to end game), this player already bought 4 or 5 of them wow Final score ended up being...
me: 37
other 2 players: 50s (one ended up going "mass Ventures", the other ended up buying a couple of Loans to trim out the Coppers)
that guy: 87

It's not always useful, but it had a BIG part in this game


EDIT: Few more details about that 4p game, and oh, blue instead
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jay cutler
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of course! basically if you buy a card or if you have left a card in your hand that you can not play for lack of action, so as to have it again in the next hand!

But I do not think it's so good to buy it
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Chris
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Buy the card and use it most of the time when you can and see how it works out. At first, if you're not sure, use the card every time you get it in your hand.

I used to think this card was not useful but then I did the above and over many games found that I did better than the player who would never buy this card.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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It's tricky because you won't directly see the effects of the card - in the right card set you'll just have generally better draws, but you won't see the "I played this and then this and then this awesome thing happened". The more your deck will tend to get better every time it cycles, the better this card is (e.g. not usually good in sets where people will be cursing a lot or where you will be doing early buys of gardens).
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jay cutler
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I still do not see it so good, I understood that you could put your deck over scraps to repeat it in the next hand, instead all the draw pile is discarded, so there is no strategy to use the chancellor!
 
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bodybuilder wrote:
I still do not see it so good, I understood that you could put your deck over scraps to repeat it in the next hand, instead all the draw pile is discarded, so there is no strategy to use the chancellor!


No strategy is a little far. The card certainly isn't the strongest, but it has it's uses.

Put it this way: Early in the game, you start with coppers and Estates - some of the weakest cards. Almost always, your deck starts improving rapidly from there - adding silvers, golds, strong $5 cost cards and the like. But you have to wait 2-3 turns from buying them before you shuffle your deck, and can even start seeing them.

With Chancellor, that gap disappears. You draw a hand with 5 coin, including your Chancellor - fairly average for an early-mid game deck. Now, you could just leave your deck as it was, OR you could use Chancellor, and suddenly that good card you just bought will be turning up in the next few hands, and you can use it much quicker. If that card was something key to your strategy - maybe a Witch or the first Market you need, then that tempo change can make all the difference.

Chancellor fits into the category of being a niche card that's usually bad, but occasionally, is what you need.
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Dave Green
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To be honest, you're right. The Chancellor is not a very powerful card, and the above-mentioned "benefit" is a rare case of excellent shuffle luck. Most of the time I never buy it and I've never (to my recollection) been beaten by someone who did. In the most ideal case, you play Chancellor, discard your deck, draw Chancellor and Big Treasure in your next hand, Play Chancellor, discard your deck, draw Chancellor and Big Treasure in your next hand, and so on and so forth

With good (borderline perfect) shuffle luck, Chancellor allows for absurdly fast deck cycling that turns up power card after power card. Most of the time, however, it just lets you shuffle a few extra times per game.

There's a really neat strategy with Chancellor, Golem, and Counting House though...
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KernTheGerm wrote:
There's a really neat strategy with Chancellor, Golem, and Counting House though...


Except you don't even need the Chancellor...
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jack elfrink
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Just to make sure, are you actually playing the 'clean up' step correctly?

When you clean up, you take all cards you have played and purchased and set them aside. You do not take the clean up cards and instantly shuffle them back into your deck. You must wait until your draw pile is totally empty before shuffling.

Several new players do not know that there should be separate draw and discard piles. They take their discard pile and shuffle it back into their deck every turn each turn. For these players it is natural to assume chancellor is useless because they are 'chancelloring' every turn regardless if they actually have a chancellor or not.

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jay cutler
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KernTheGerm wrote:
To be honest, you're right. The Chancellor is not a very powerful card, and the above-mentioned "benefit" is a rare case of excellent shuffle luck. Most of the time I never buy it and I've never (to my recollection) been beaten by someone who did. In the most ideal case, you play Chancellor, discard your deck, draw Chancellor and Big Treasure in your next hand, Play Chancellor, discard your deck, draw Chancellor and Big Treasure in your next hand, and so on and so forth

With good (borderline perfect) shuffle luck, Chancellor allows for absurdly fast deck cycling that turns up power card after power card. Most of the time, however, it just lets you shuffle a few extra times per game.

There's a really neat strategy with Chancellor, Golem, and Counting House though...


I see that you do not like the Chancellor. In fact, I thought I'd remove it.

I wanted to ask, is there any paper in the set intrigue boring and / or unbalanced? I have read some, for example scout, saboteur that seem to me not very useful
 
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Roberta Yang
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When you buy cards, you buy them because adding them to your deck makes your deck better.

Since it is impossible to draw them before your deck reshuffles, they are not making your deck better until you reshuffle.

Chancellor makes you reshuffle sooner.

As an experiment, try this: one player buys a single Chancellor and otherwise only buys basic Treasure/Victory cards, while the other player buys a single Woodcutter and otherwise only buys basic Treasure/Victory cards. You may be surprised by how dramatic the difference is.
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Josh Chen
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bodybuilder wrote:


I see that you do not like the Chancellor. In fact, I thought I'd remove it.

I wanted to ask, is there any paper in the set intrigue boring and / or unbalanced? I have read some, for example scout, saboteur that seem to me not very useful


I see you are heading toward the path that I took a while ago, which is to find out each cards' strength and weakness in hope to become a good player. For a while I was reading into Qvist's card ranking more than I should. I started playing Dominion with buying the highest ranked cards or cards with the most winning %. Even with my effort, I still constantly lose to my brother who doesn't read strategies or even play Goko online like me.

What is the matter you asked? It is because Dominion is not a game about individual cards but the deck you are building. I am still trying to see the bigger picture by trying to forget about those card ranking and statistics.

I would say don't get too held up and upset when you think a card is weak. In my opinion the beauty of Dominion is how you can use cards to the best of the situation.
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Roger Horner
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bodybuilder wrote:
I have read some, for example scout, saboteur that seem to me not very useful


The scout is definitely very useful. While putting the victory point cards in your hand may not seem useful, it takes them out of your draw pile, making your next draw (either next turn or from a +card action) more powerful. The advantage of putting them in your hand as opposed to putting them in your discard pile, is if you happen to need to reshuffle before the end of your turn, they won't be in your new draw pile.

As for saboteur, it is a weaker attack, but it does weaken your opponents hand by forcing him to downgrade a card. Near the beginning of the game it will hunt and downgrade one of the new cards he bought. Near the end of the game (when his hand is green), if it causes him to change a Province to a Duchy, that could change the outcome.
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Josh Chen
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Just to chime in on the scout comment, scout works great with Harem and Noble!
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roger1818 wrote:
bodybuilder wrote:
I have read some, for example scout, saboteur that seem to me not very useful


The scout is definitely very useful. While putting the victory point cards in your hand may not seem useful, it takes them out of your draw pile, making your next draw (either next turn or from a +card action) more powerful. The advantage of putting them in your hand as opposed to putting them in your discard pile, is if you happen to need to reshuffle before the end of your turn, they won't be in your new draw pile.


If you play Scout and put one card into your hand, what you've effectively done is had a dead card this turn to have one less dead card less turn - it's essentially done (almost) nothing. If you aren't averaging at least one victory card pulled from it (so a deck of 1/4 victory cards), then on average, scout helps less than the extra card in your deck hurts. Now that gets skewed somewhat when you start getting playable cards out of it, but even then, the benefit is staying very small. When is your deck getting above 1/4 victory card density? Well technically it starts above it, but will very likely dip back down. Then... very late, you might just reach it? But at that point you probably prefer an Estate or Duchy.

The reshuffle point is pretty minor overall. It's rare you're going to play scout then do more to cause a reshuffle, and if you play scout and it causes a reshuffle itself, those victory cards would have missed the reshuffle anyway, so there's no advantage.

Really, Scout is only worthwhile if there's a specific use for it. There's a reason the high level Dominion community widely jokes about the card, and why Donald X himself has admitted it's a weak card (it's one he's said he would consider buffing, if he had a time machine).
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Since every card has a chance to shine, Scout has its time when paired with Apothecary (and really nothing else in the deck, but Potion(s), Copper, and Victory cards). Wishing Wells make really good supplements to this deck.

The groove here is to use Apothecary to draw up everything that isn't green and scouts to clear the greens out of the way for the next Apothecary. You buy a Copper at some point and can buy Provinces by drawing your entire deck. It chugs a little at the start (which is when Wells are bought, if available), but it doesn't require a trashing stage, which keeps it competitive.

Still, I have a feeling that Cartographer is better than a Scout in this deck. It's been a long time since I played it.
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Matt N

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bodybuilder wrote:


I see that you do not like the Chancellor. In fact, I thought I'd remove it.


It's not a bad idea to have some "bad" cards out there, unless everyone has already decided to never buy it. Variety is a good thing.

bodybuilder wrote:
I wanted to ask, is there any paper in the set intrigue boring and / or unbalanced? I have read some, for example scout, saboteur that seem to me not very useful


Scout is pretty bad in most cases. I would not buy it unless there is a specific role and it gives me some benefit beyond +1 card/+1 action. It's definitely not a card you can randomly splash and hope it will improve your deck (unlike say laboratory).

Saboteur does unbalance 3p+ games in that it's often weak, but swings the game a lot when hitting provinces. I typically don't want the card out. However, it is not useless, and is valuable for certain cases where you are destroying key cards that have a finite supply. There are quite a few counters to saboteur though.


(Yes, I know scout does not intrinsically give +1 card. It still has to be better than that to be useful.)
 
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Roger Horner
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I Eat Tables wrote:
Really, Scout is only worthwhile if there's a specific use for it. There's a reason the high level Dominion community widely jokes about the card, and why Donald X himself has admitted it's a weak card (it's one he's said he would consider buffing, if he had a time machine).


If you wanted to buff the Scout, you could allow it to also put curse cards into your hand. Not only would this improve the probability of it thinning your deck, but would help find the curse cards for trashing. It would otherwise be a minor change.
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roger1818 wrote:
I Eat Tables wrote:
Really, Scout is only worthwhile if there's a specific use for it. There's a reason the high level Dominion community widely jokes about the card, and why Donald X himself has admitted it's a weak card (it's one he's said he would consider buffing, if he had a time machine).


If you wanted to buff the Scout, you could allow it to also put curse cards into your hand. Not only would this improve the probability of it thinning your deck, but would help find the curse cards for trashing. It would otherwise be a minor change.
Not bad, although that gets to be more situational then I would've preferred (as not all games will have Curses). However, that does keep it appropriate at $4. I would've changed it to +2 cards where its $4 cost may not be appropriate anymore.

I wonder what DXV's buff would've been?
 
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Chris Kern
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Scout is so bad that it's tough to salvage; the usual fixes are increasing the number of cards you draw or adding +1 Action (or +1 Card). I wonder if Vagrant from Dark Ages was an attempt at redoing the concept in a card that's worth using.

Chancellor is generally perceived as a weak card -- it has something of a bell curve where beginners discount it because they don't understand the purpose, and experts discount it because they understand the purpose but don't think it's worth a terminal silver for the effect (most of the time).
 
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yudantaiteki wrote:
Scout is so bad that it's tough to salvage; the usual fixes are increasing the number of cards you draw or adding +1 Action (or +1 Card). I wonder if Vagrant from Dark Ages was an attempt at redoing the concept in a card that's worth using.
If it's that bad, then that may be the ticket...
+1 action
+1 card
+1 action OR +1 card
then the usual text about revealing and drawing Victory cards into your hand blah blah blah

Even then, Vagrant isn't all THAT good either, although I digress in where it may be an appropriate $2 card at least. I have seen some players with $3 get that instead of Silver, which did make me cringe.
 
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Matt E
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yudantaiteki wrote:
Scout is so bad that it's tough to salvage; the usual fixes are increasing the number of cards you draw or adding +1 Action (or +1 Card).


If I were to try to improve it, I'd try adding +$1. +1 Card puts it more on par with Cartographer, a $5 card.
 
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Maarten Robinson
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I don't understand the upset about scout ... It's a cleansing card (moving upto 4 victory cards out of the next draw of cards and it is not terminal. I quite like it and anyway my mum was our akela when I was much younger and dad was GSM so I would have to like it really!)
 
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