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Heroes of Normandie» Forums » Rules

Subject: LoS Question rss

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Boris
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I printed and played the demo some days ago and I realy did enjoy it.
However, I still do have a question about LoS.

Infantry Units block LoS, check.

But, please take a look at Picture 1:
In this example, following the red line, I cannot fire at the infantry, because the LoS is blocked.


Now take a look at Picture 2:
I also cannot fire to the enemy infantry, because the LoS is blocked from the previously infantry. But how can the LoS be blocked, if the "blocking unit" is not normaly seen by LoS ? This should be impossible...
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clemens kremer
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Good question Logic, though art a harsh mistress ...
 
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Peter Kraft
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What is blocking in picture 1, the bush?
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clemens kremer
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Yes, the hedgerow
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Barry Doyle
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Quite honestly, I'm not looking for heavy wargame rules in HoN, and I hope DPG keeps it as simple as it is now. I have no problem with a few fudges here and there, for the sake of playabiltiy. If the rules say it blocks LOS, it blocks LOS.

Besides, in these cases the rule of reciprocity applies -- what affects you also affects the other player. In this specific example, Able can see Baker, and his LOS is also blocked to you.
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Angelus Seniores
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There's the part where you might see a little, but not enough to shoot it, its only a glimpse

then, in another game I played, it considered that if you couldnt see a particular unit to shoot at it, then neither did it block line of sight to any other unit, ie like in your picture, the unit is ducking behind the bush in such a way that it actually no longer blocks your LOS to the other unit behind it.
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I haven't gotten a chance to play the demo. Does it specifically state that LoS is based on the center of the token?

Most grid-based games I've played use the corners instead. Rather than saying the center of the token has to visibly see the center of the other token, it instead asks whether any attacker corner can visibly see any defender corner, with some additional rules based on corners.

I'm not sure if that holds true in HoN though, since it also has positional hitting, which generally aren't part of the combat-lite (in terms of rules) grid games I've played.
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G. Uitz
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Yes. LOS is calculated "Center to Center".

Dark.
 
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Boris
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Just checked the full english rules.

There it says:

"When firing on tokens that occupy two spaces, the firing player can choose which space’s center to target."

Does this mean, that if a target is two spaces away (like in picture 1), than I may use LoS from center to corner instead of center to center ?

Because this could help.

If it doesn't, than it will become a houserule for us.
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clemens kremer
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token that occupy two spaces would be tanks and such (cthulhu monsters?)...
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Boris
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Ahh.. ok, thanks a lot ! Now I understand this one.


Still, I would realy like to know what to do in this case.
I cannot believe, that noone is seeing each other...
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clemens kremer
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The designer is quite active here, once the KS is over I am sure they will answer your question....
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clem seurat
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It's not because you don't see the center of the unit that this unit doesn't occupy the whole square. So it blocks the LoS but you can't shoot efficiently at it.
Am i clear ?
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clemens kremer
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picoloclem wrote:
It's not because you don't see the center of the unit that this unit doesn't occupy the whole square. So it blocks the LoS but you can't shoot efficiently at it.
Am i clear ?


Honestly ? No get some sleep and try again
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clem seurat
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hahaha, i'll sleep in 4 hours + some champagne !
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Jacek Deimer
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I have to say that rules would need a lot of clarifications, but we have time for this, let's celebrate now !!!
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Boris
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picoloclem wrote:
It's not because you don't see the center of the unit that this unit doesn't occupy the whole square. So it blocks the LoS but you can't shoot efficiently at it.
Am i clear ?


Hi !
First at all: Congratulations for your successful Kickstarter Project !! I am realy exited to get the game some day at home

Second:
No, I am sorry, I don't get it

And right now, I have another question regarding the LoS. How should we handle the smaller tokens ? Like in this picture:
 
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Angelus Seniores
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basically, whatever the size of the token, it either occupies 1 space (most infantry and small vehicles) or 2 spaces (large vehicles).
for each of those spaces they fill the space completely.
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Allan Doyle

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I think I'll stir the pot a little.

While anxiously awaiting my purchase, I decided to review all the updates and came across this video posted by DPG.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1538673930/heroes-of-nor...

From my understanding the unit providing suppressing fire should not has LoS. So it looks like DGP takes a liberal view of LoS.

Possable reasons the video is this way.
1) It was only intended to show how suppressive fire works and ignored LoS for this purpose.
2) The Orange line of a square is where you judge LoS. Which would make sense. As the actual counter for a vehicle is what counts for LoS and not the whole square. (legal note: at least this is how the demos is. I haven't completely read the full rules. blush)

I think the answer is number 2. In which case I do not believe the LoS would be blocked for picture 2 if a smaller unit were behind the hedge.

My 2 cents on picture two is; I can see the logic of the Americans not being able to fire for fear of Friendly Fire, but I think the Germans should be able to fire.

I am interested to hear how DPG would like us to play this situation.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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Quote:
basically, whatever the size of the token, it either occupies 1 space (most infantry and small vehicles) or 2 spaces (large vehicles).
for each of those spaces they fill the space completely.



But, what about 2 space vehicles put diagonaly:




In picture abowe, how many spaces does Oddbals Sherman occupy? How that effect LoS?
 
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Miah Terry
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According to the demo rules large tokens: vehicles, obsticles, etc. only effect LOS if your LOS measured from the center of your token passes through the tank or whatever it is, and not just the squares its in.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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miah999 wrote:
According to the demo rules large tokens: vehicles, obsticles, etc. only effect LOS if your LOS measured from the center of your token passes through the tank or whatever it is, and not just the squares its in.


So it looks like that we played demo incorectly several times. We couldn't find the rules for this in full english rulebook. And must have missed it in demo one.

Well, we played it that burning jepp in demo effects LoS for entire 4 squares that it touches.
We must have used analogy to grenades:
Grenades are thrown at intersection and damage units on all 4 adjanced tiles.
Jepp is placed precisely at intesection so there is "smoke effect" on all 4 adjanced tiles.


My initial idea was that LoS in HoN works in a similar way to Dust Tactics, each square blocks LoS or doesn't. That's all, no partially blocked spaces.


If it's really the case that you have precisely measure LoS (with a ruler or tape or this laser thing in pictures abowe) and determine if a small bit of a token blocks LoS each time you shoot then it can be a lot of pain for a chaotic person with clumsy hands, like me .

It will also require to be very precise when placing and moving tokens or terrain features. I can see a lot of downtime here and big field for arguments (You don't have LoS, 2mm of a bunker token blocks it. Yes, I have, I checked 3 times, believe me, I'm good at it! NO, YOU DON'T. STOP CHEATING!). Especially that most weapons have unlimited range in HoN, so checking LoS diagonaly over 14 or even 21 spaces may be a common thing.


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Boris
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As far I did understand, the square counts as blocking object, if something is in it. Just imagine a small unit in a square, which cannot fit directly in a field. I could move that little unit in this square to block something and not... that would be a little bit stupid to do that :-)
To measure every LoS directly on the drawn objects would be too complicated for a fast and easy game like HoN wants to be...
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Jacek Deimer
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vampb wrote:
As far I did understand, the square counts as blocking object, if something is in it. Just imagine a small unit in a square, which cannot fit directly in a field. I could move that little unit in this square to block something and not... that would be a little bit stupid to do that :-)
To measure every LoS directly on the drawn objects would be too complicated for a fast and easy game like HoN wants to be...


That was my and my friends assumption from the beginning.

I always wanted to play WHFB or WK40k(tried it for a short time), but was always discouraged by requirement to precisely measure movement, range and LoS with a measuring tape. Also my friends who collect WHFB and are big fans of it, regret that games take too long because of all this measuring, that they cannot find time to play it often enought.

I hope that you are right and that HoN will have a more streamlined, simple and unambiguous LoS system.

One note on demo game:

Burning Jepp doesn't block movement in any way, so this strenghtens feeling that it's more of a marker for a "smoke effect", than an actual vehicle.
 
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