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Dungeon Command: Curse of Undeath» Forums » General

Subject: Is turtling a problem here? rss

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Marcin Mościcki
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I'm fairly new to this but I like it more with every game. However, my last couple of games were against someone with a very defensive approach. Even when leading, he preferred to fall back and make me attack him. This has been especially problematic with heroes versus the undead - the tiles from the latter set contain a lot of of obstacles, including a closed room which severly diminishes the utility of the main strength of heroes, their ranged attacks.

It seems that if two players are unwilling to fight (as the first person to make an approach is the first to take the blow), there's nothing in the game rules to make them. Ideally, there should be some morale gain/penalty for avoiding battle. The treasures are not enough, as they were all picked up quite early in my games. I think I'll remove the 1 treasure tiles to make them more important (and reduce possible unfair advantage to one side from the luck in the draw), but would like something more.
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schizoferret wrote:
I'm fairly new to this but I like it more with every game. However, my last couple of games were against someone with a very defensive approach. Even when leading, he preferred to fall back and make me attack him. This has been especially problematic with heroes versus the undead - the tiles from the latter set contain a lot of of obstacles, including a closed room which severly diminishes the utility of the main strength of heroes, their ranged attacks.

It seems that if two players are unwilling to fight (as the first person to make an approach is the first to take the blow), there's nothing in the game rules to make them. Ideally, there should be some morale gain/penalty for avoiding battle. The treasures are not enough, as they were all picked up quite early in my games. I think I'll remove the 1 treasure tiles to make them more important (and reduce possible unfair advantage to one side from the luck in the draw), but would like something more.


It really depends on the faction to be honest. It is possible to build a faction (Cormyr out of the box is best at this) that can turtle fairly well. THe solution is to either build a warband to counter this or if you want to use none customized war bands use Blood Of Gruumsh to brute force your way in, Goblins to Swarm them to death, or Sting of Llolth to range attack them down (least favorable solution if they hide behind doors).

If they are hiding behind doors best solution is Blood of Gruumsh with a beefed up Ogre using one of the AE attack cards, thats a good eye opener.

Make sure to smile with a menacing grin when you bring the Ogre into play, it ensures they wont try to turtle ever again versus you
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Marcin Mościcki
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Swarm with goblins? Somewhat paradoxically they don't have good low level characters apart from the archers perhaps. The goblin cutter is the weakest level 1 character in the game

I think about adding a rule that if you don't make an attack or pick up a treasure during a whole round, you lose 1 morale. What do you think?
 
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Fox Saiffer
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I think turtling is problem in (otherwise perfect) Dungeon Command series and is a huge one.

I still don't know what to do against it.
It should be some mechanic that punish turtling. It isn't. And this sentence directly from designer of the game indicating that it will not ever be:
RodneyThompson wrote:
One of the things we really work hard on when designing these faction packs is to make sure each one has a distinct flavor (backed up by a mechanical schtick) that helps distinguish the packs from one another. The Heart of Cormyr pack is defensive and deliberate, the Sting of Lolth pack is mobile and reactive, the Tyranny of Goblins pack is based on swarming and beefing up weak creatures, and you'll find the Curse of Undeath pack is about being relentless and versatile, with lots of spells and some very nice graveyard manipulation.
(original post here)
--------------

Grumsh wrote:
It really depends on the faction to be honest. It is possible to build a faction (Cormyr out of the box is best at this) that can turtle fairly well. THe solution is to either build a warband to counter this or if you want to use none customized war bands use Blood Of Gruumsh to brute force your way in, Goblins to Swarm them to death, or Sting of Llolth to range attack them down (least favorable solution if they hide behind doors).

If they are hiding behind doors best solution is Blood of Gruumsh with a beefed up Ogre using one of the AE attack cards, thats a good eye opener.

Is this brute force or swarming really possible? I think the disadvantage (of taking first hits after running through doors to perfectly prepared defensive opponent) is too big to handle the fight and win.

--------------

In 3 players game this is 10 times worse.

We once tried 3 players game and we stuck on this problem:

One player (who now knew that he will die if he will fight further) just turtle himself and wait until other two players smash themselves.
Then he will just kill the remaining troops on Battlefield and win.
He tells us this and there was nothing to make him to not do that.
But then everyone wanted to do that.
What then?
Again. There is no mechanic to punish turtling.

If I'm wrong and it is definitely possible to brute force or swarm the turtling enemies, please tell me.
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Marcin Mościcki
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Well,
I stopped playing because of it, at least indirectly. Anyone I would introduce to it would see that 'when in doubt, turtle' is a powerful strategy, and not knowing the game they were even more willing to do it. I don't blame them, I blame the game. All in all, most viewed it as a flaw, and not as interesting as it could be first game lead to no rematches sadly. Now I sit on three sets of boxes and additional two sets of cards like a stupid

One day I'll find someone willing to play it rather regularly and will try to test several countermeasure ideas.
 
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Fox Saiffer
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I've read all the DC forum threads (here on BGG) and all I can found was this:

1. Player's advices about turtling is just improving you strategy:
Forum threads:
- "disrupting a turtle strategy"
- "Playing defensively doesn't really gain you much."
- "Player that overextends first is who loses"
- "Drow need to hit as fast as they can"
- "The Swarm" decklists
- Goblins? Use Horned Devil + Tough as Nails
- Pros and Cons of all factions
- Other pros and cons of all factions
- Swarm again

2. More boxes are almost inevitable choice for better play
Forum threads:
- This is a warband-building game

3. For 3-players game make your own new set of rules (which I don't want to do because I'm not a designer and therefore don't know if I'm overpowering/penalizing some player with them)
Forum threads:
- 3 Player Game? Use own rules
- Again some 3-player problems

Conclusion:
Next game, I will definitely create custom deck from every faction I have and try more aggressive strategy.
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