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Ardennes '44» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about disengagement in the example of play rss

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olivier R
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In the combat phase of the first Allied turn in the extended example of play, why can't the engaged 28\110\3 unit in Hosingen retreat into the wooded rough hex near Consthum in 2413?

You can't cross a wooded rough hexside unless ou start adjacent to it and use tactical movement, but that's only in the movement phase not retreat right?
 
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Merric Blackman
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pepe le moko wrote:
In the combat phase of the first Allied turn in the extended example of play, why can't the engaged 28\110\3 unit in Hosingen retreat into the wooded rough hex near Consthum in 2413?

You can't cross a wooded rough hexside unless ou start adjacent to it and use tactical movement, but that's only in the movement phase not retreat right?


It's at all times. Disengaging isn't Tactical Movement, so the restriction on infantry crossing Wooded Rough hexsides(11.6) applies.

Cheers,
Merric
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olivier R
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Ok thanks, I have been playing that wrong.

Disengagement is a form of retreat and usually in wargames normal movement rules like MP expenditure for instance don't apply so I thought as long as you didn't enter a prohibited hex it was allowed.
 
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Merric Blackman
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It's probably best to think of it as a prohibited hex with one exception!
 
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olivier R
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But then that means infantry units can never retreat accross a non road wooded rough hexside since it is only allowed with tactical movement?

And it would also mean that you can't retreat across a non bridged river which sounds odd because there is a special rule for the Meuse specifically prohibiting that, which implies it is allowed for regular rivers.
 
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olivier R
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The questions above assume disengagement is a form of retreat.

But maybe it is not and you should apply normal movement restrictions for disengagement (which means you can't cross a river or a non wooded rough hexside unless you start adjacent to it and don't cross two such hexsides) and be allowed to retreat anywhere.

That could solve the problem imo.
 
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Kenneth Lury
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I am certainly no expert, but I think the only prohibition against movement during retreat or disengagement is that a unit cannot retreat or disengage into a hex into which the unit is prohibited from moving per the movement rules.
From the rule book:

20.3 Explanation of Results Yes: The unit must retreat one or two hexes abiding by the restrictions of 17.2 and 17.7. If the unit is not Disrupted it may stop in the first hex even if it is in an EZOC (however, it may not cross or enter an enemy ZOC Bond)

17.2 Elimination due to a Retreat
Units are eliminated if they retreat:
• into a hex occupied by an enemy unit,
• across or into an enemy ZOC Bond,
• into a vacant hex in an enemy ZOC other than the first hex of their
retreat, or
• across a non-bridged Meuse River or Lake hexside, or
• are unable to retreat the full number of hexes required.
Additionally, Vehicle Units are eliminated if they retreat:
• into or out of a Forest, West Wall or Wooded Rough hex unless
through a road hexside
• across a non-bridged river hexside.

17.7 Artillery and Retreats
• Artillery Units that retreat must flip to their Fired side.
• German Artillery Units without a Prime Mover marker are eliminated
if forced to retreat.

 
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Merric Blackman
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You may be right. It's worth noting that Examples of Play are frequently buggy since some small rule changes in final preparation...
 
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olivier R
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No idea, I am still waiting for an answer on CSW. Until then I am going to play like I said, movement restrictions apply to disengagements but not to retreats as long as it is not a prohibited hex.
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Merric Blackman
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I've just been thinking about the situation further (and not seeing any clarification on CSW), I think it works as follows:

* You can only retreat into a wooded rough hex or an unbridged river if you begin adjacent to it. (Retreats are treated as a form of tactical movement).

Looking at the situation in that map...

2313 is legal (first hex of retreats may be into EZOC, per 17.1B)
2314 is legal for the same reason
2412 is not legal because it's wooded rough and the unit didn't begin adjacent.
2413 is legal as it is a clear hex
2414 is not legal because there's a enemy unit exerting an EZOC there.

Does that make sense?

Cheers,
Merric
 
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olivier R
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I could very well be wrong but I have been playing it like you said except that I only applied it to disengagements, not retreats.

But your way is probably more logical.

The problem is that it is not clear whether disengagements and retreats are the same thing and whether tactical movement applies to both.

You should really post this same question on CSW, maybe you will get luckier than me and someone will answer you.
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olivier R
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Erm so it appears this question has been answered in a previous 2003 FAQ that I found on the GMT website.

http://www.gmtgames.com/nna4/A44_FAQ.pdf

It appears the error in the example of play wasn't incorporated in the reprint.

EXTENDED EXAMPLE OF PLAY

Q: In the extended example on page 32 of the rules, the disengaging battalion in Hosingen is, according to the example, not allowed to retreat into 2413 (the wooded rough hex two hexes
away). Is that correct? If so, is that actually in the rules, or was it inadvertently left out? The wooded rough rule on movement appears to apply only in the movement phase.

A: Good catch, the Extended Example is incorrect. Infantry type units can retreat into such a hex.

----

So I take it that disengagement is a form of retreat and tactical movement restrictions don't seem to apply to either of them.
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Merric Blackman
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pepe le moko wrote:
Erm so it appears this question has been answered in a previous 2003 FAQ that I found on the GMT website.

So I take it that disengagement is a form of retreat and tactical movement restrictions don't seem to apply to either of them.


The rules make note that a disengaged unit is 'retreated one or two hexes', so it makes sense they follow the retreat rules. Good find on the old FAQ; I wish they'd incorporated it into the reprint!

Cheers,
Merric
 
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