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Subject: Help Wanted: France 1940 Infantry Squad rss

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Bradley Knoll
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Shilo
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Soldier for Up Front, but is my back to the Volga or the Spree river?
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Hello,


The Up Front design team wants to have most historically accurate rank titles, abbreviations and insignia for a infantry squad (section). The intent is to add historically accurate flavour and not just apply the United States rank structure, titles and insignia to all nationalities like the original edition.

The intent is to achieve the best historical accuracy with flex towards game play. Please do not go to wiki and quote me a French Army squad leader in NATO code OR-3... This has to be World War 2.


I have most of the info for the french illustration guide, but need clarity on one element, Assistant Squad Leader Rank.

I have conflicting sources that state either Caporal or Caporal Chef.

Caporal Chef was introduced in 1928 and I do not know if they were Assistant Squad Leaders in an infantry squad or some sort of staff NCO.


I would also like confirmation of 1940 period french abbreviations for:

Adjutant - Adj
Sergent - Sgt or Sergt
Caporal - Cpl or Capl
Caporal Chef - CCh
Soldat de première classe - ? 1CL or Sol de 1re or Sol 1re
Soldat de deuxième classe classe - Sol


Below are examples of Germany, Great Britain, and the United States



Any references to uniforms, equipment and insignia would be appreciated would be appreciated also.

Please PM me.

Thanks

Brad Knoll
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Ethan McKinney
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El Segundo
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The France 1940 Yahoogroup is an excellent resource. The folks there are frighteningly knowledgeable: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/France1940/

Keep in mind that the French had different squad organizations for different units, including differences between metropolitan and colonial formations.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/France1940/message/8585
Maréchal de France it is not a rank it is a honorific distinction
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
Général d'Armée (5 stars) was not a real offical
rank but a more distinctive mark
Général corps d'Armée (4 stars)
General de Division (3 stars)
ALL ARE CONSIDERED AS SUPERIOR OFFICERS
General de Brigade ( 2 stars)
Colonel (in old times up to 1950? could command a brigade or a division
Colonel De Gaulle by instance was chief of the 4th DCR)
Lieutenant Colonel (also known as Chef de corp for commanding a regiment)
Commandant also known as Chef de bataillon ( no more true in modern french
army as our regiment are bataillon sized)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
Capitaine
Lieutenant
Sous Lieutenant
ARE CONSIDERED AS SUBALTERN OFFICERS
Aspirant (rank reserved for young conscript officers during their national
service)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Major ( new rank created in 1978 more or less)
Adjudant Chef
ARE CONSIDERED AS SUPERIOR NCO
Adjudant ( was my rank in reserve )
Sergent Major ( rank lost after 1960 If I recall well, was dedicated to
soldiers, human ressource and money management of a company. My father was
one in Indochina and Moroco in 1948-1950
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sergent Chef (infantry) Marechal des logis Chef ( cavalry)
Sergent (infantry) Maréchal des logis (cavalry)
ARE CONSIDERED AS SUBALTERN NCO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
Caporal Chef ( Infantry) Brigadier Chef ( Cavalry) ( very often same
have fonction as sergent especialy as tank or armoured car commander)
Caporal ( infantry) Brigadier ( related to cavalry)
1ére classe ( distinction not rank)
Soldier
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William Barnett-Lewis
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Hayward
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I have nothing to add but my thanks for learning something tonight. I remember training with the French Army in the early 80's as a tanker. I was on M-60A3's (good tanks) and being reasonably impressed with their AMX-30's and far more impressed with the quality of their rations (wine, good smokes, real bread, etc...)devil
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Chris M.
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bk_otj wrote:
Hello,

I have most of the info for the french illustration guide, but need clarity on one element, Assistant Squad Leader Rank.

I have conflicting sources that state either Caporal or Caporal Chef.

Caporal Chef was introduced in 1928 and I do not know if they were Assistant Squad Leaders in an infantry squad or some sort of staff NCO.


I would also like confirmation of 1940 period french abbreviations for:

Adjutant - Adj
Sergent - Sgt or Sergt
Caporal - Cpl or Capl
Caporal Chef - CCh
Soldat de première classe - ? 1CL or Sol de 1re or Sol 1re
Soldat de deuxième classe classe - Sol


Below are examples of Germany, Great Britain, and the United States



Any references to uniforms, equipment and insignia would be appreciated would be appreciated also.

Please PM me.

Thanks

Brad Knoll


Adjutant - Adj
Sergent - Sgt
Caporal - Cpl
Caporal Chef - CCh
Soldat de première classe - 1CL
Soldat de deuxième classe classe - Sol

Ranks are shortened in trigrams.
However, in some arms (Cavalry, Artillery, etc.) Sergent becomes Maréchal-des-Logis (MDL/MCH) and Caporal becomes Brigadier (BRI/BCH).
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Alec Clair
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Caporal chef is not a NCO rank, it's the highest rank for enlisted soldiers. This is in contrast to many countries where Corporal is the first NCO rank.
Note that in the cavalry (this include armored units) they are called Brigadier or Brigadier-Chef.

The Caporal can supplement or replace a segent as a 10 soldiers squad leader. I would say they are assistant squad leaders.

The difference between the basic Caporal and the Caporal-Chef, is mostly honorary, in the sense that they fulfill the same roles. A Caporal can just be promoted to Caporal Chef after several years serving as the Caporal. But they have the same formation and diploma. If the Sergent is missing in action, A Caporal-Chef would be choosed before a basic Caporal as a replacement.


From the french Army official website:

• Caporal:
In the fifteenth century a Corporal is a dizenier head (head of ten men). Officer of a lower rank, whose name comes from the Italian "capo" head which originates in the Latin word "caput", which also gave captain. He is the first officer in the hierarchy just above the status of the simple basic soldier. One constant in this grade is that Corporal houses, lives and fights with the enlisted men he commands. Starting with a 1821 regulation this grade is attached to the enlisted category of troops. Corporal is the supervisor of the battle group. The troops refer to him for orders and details of the internal service. In army branches who were equipped with horses in the past he was called brigadier. (Artillery, Cavalry, Train ...).
Corporal wears two red chevrons fused.

• Caporal Chef:
This grade is born from the need to distinguish between the rank and share the diversity of roles and missions allotted to corporal and the growing number of them. Without multiplying ranks names. In 1754 was created the specialty of quartermaster, which was occupied by men of the rank of corporal or sergeant. With the Great War, Corporal quartermaster disappears to be replaced by the rank of Corporal-Chef (hyphenated) that still continues today.
The Caporal-Chef carries two red chevrons joined, topped with a gold or silver chevron.

The proper wording in french is Adjudant

During WW1 the abbreviations were not standardized nor official yet, I haven't found any evidences for WW2

However since 2007:

Soldat: sdt
1ère Classe: 1cl
Caporal: cpl
Caporal-Chef cch
Sergent: sgt
Sergent-chef: sch
Adjudant: adj
Adjudant-chef: adc

For equivalency, there is not always a clear match from one army organisation to another:

Warrant Officer > Adjudant chef
Staff Sergeant Major > Adjudant
Staff Sergeant > Sergent-Chef
Sergeant > Sergent
Corporal > Caporal
Private First class > Soldat de première Classe
Private > Soldat (2ème classe)

The difference of "-Chef" in Caporal-Chef, Sergent-Chef, Adjudant-Chef, with the regular Caporal, Sergent and Adjudant is a matter of seniority within the same function.





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Bradley Knoll
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Soldier for Up Front, but is my back to the Volga or the Spree river?
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Would fantassin be a more accurate title to the rank Soldat in the infantry?
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Alec Clair
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Fantassin is nor a proper rank per se, and neither a title . It's a generic name, maybe like saying Trooperor Infantryman in english.

The official rank is Soldat, the mention de 2éme classe is most of the time not appended, this is very formal.

Depending on the unit type official rank are:

Soldat, Infantry
Chasseur, Mountain Troops
Cavalier, Cavalry
Canonnier, Artillery
Sapeur, Enginneer
Conducteur, Transport
Légionnaire, Foreign Legion
Transmetteur, Transmission

This is for the basic ranks.

Men are called as above or by their last name,
alternatively "2ème class + Last Name", for example "2éme classe Guinnard"

Officially, Soldat de 1ére classe, is just a distinction and not a proper rank.





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