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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Data Raven, Parasite, and Datasucker rss

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Alexander Mont
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Suppose that I am running against a server that has a Data Raven with a Parasite with 3 virus counters. I also have a Datasucker with 1 virus counter in my play area. When encountering the Data Raven, do I have a chance to use the Datasucker to drop the Data Raven's strength to trash it before the Data Raven's "take 1 tag or end the run" ability triggers?

Also, suppose that I didn't have the Datasucker, but isntead had an Ice Carver. Would the Data Raven get trashed before or after its "take 1 tag or end the run" ability triggers?
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T.J. Condon
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My understanding is that in the first case, you must take (or not take) the tag before interacting with the Data Raven, be it with Datasucker or any other effects you may have that require payment for an ability.

In the second, the conditional effect triggers when you encounter the Raven, dropping its strength to 0 and triggering another conditional effect (the trash effect on the Parasite). As the runner has priority in resolving effects, these would fire before the Raven tries to tag.
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Vince Alvarez
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The Datasucker counter is a paid ability that you can choose to use after you encounter the piece of ICE, meaning you would have to choose to take a tag or ETR before being able to kill the ICE via Parasite.

ICE Carver is an automatic ability that triggers on having encountered ICE, meaning you (as the active player) get to choose whether to resolve Data Raven's ability or ICE Carver's ability first. Obviously you would choose ICE Carver's ability first, trashing the ICE via Parasite.

Hope that helps!
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Andy Mills
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heyvince wrote:
meaning you (as the active player) get to choose whether to resolve Data Raven's ability or ICE Carver's ability first.


No, no, no. Since it is the Runner's turn, Ice Carver MUST resolve first.
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Brian Moore
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manydills wrote:
heyvince wrote:
meaning you (as the active player) get to choose whether to resolve Data Raven's ability or ICE Carver's ability first.


No, no, no. Since it is the Runner's turn, Ice Carver MUST resolve first.


Correct. It's not a paid ability. It's a constant ability, as defined on page 21 of the rulebook. You don't get the choice, the Ice strength is lowered on encounter. On encounter effects are classified as Triggered Abilities (specifically a Conditional). These effects occur in order of active player/nonactive player and is why a Femme Fatale can circumvent a Data Raven's on encounter effect.
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Joshua Siegfried
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manydills wrote:
heyvince wrote:
meaning you (as the active player) get to choose whether to resolve Data Raven's ability or ICE Carver's ability first.


No, no, no. Since it is the Runner's turn, Ice Carver MUST resolve first.


To be a little more specific...

There are three types of abilities in this game

Constant Abilities - like Ice Carver's strength reduction.

Conditional Abilities - use the "When (the runner) encounters..." phrasing

Paid Abilities - always have a cost:effect

Constant abilities always take precedence over Conditional or Paid abilities and trigger before them. The +2 strength from an unbroken Chum is a Constant ability.

Next are Conditional Abilities. They will trigger after Constant abilities, but before Paid abilities. Data Raven, Tollbooth and Femme Fatale's bypass are all Conditional abilities.

Last are Paid abilities, which trigger after the others, within the timing windows listed on the timing structures of the turn or run.

Within the constant and conditional timing phases, if there are multiple cards that trigger at the same time, the active player MUST trigger his abilities first. He can choose the order of his own abilities if there are multiple choices, but he cannot choose to let the other player trigger his constant or conditional abilities first.
 
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Brian Moore
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Butaman551 wrote:
Within the constant and conditional timing phases, if there are multiple cards that trigger at the same time, the active player MUST trigger his abilities first. He can choose the order of his own abilities if there are multiple choices, but he cannot choose to let the other player trigger his constant or conditional abilities first.


That is not correct. Look at the example in the recent FAQ regarding Chum and Ice Carver. Unbroken Chum is in front, runner has Ice Carver. They go on to say that constant abilities happen simultaneously if multiple apply, thus a Chum sub would raise the strength at the same time the Ice Carver reduced the strength and it wouldn't die on encounter. It's on the bottom right of page 3 of the FAQ at this URL...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...

Edit: To put it simply the following is the sequence.

Constant: Always in effect before conditional and paid, simultaneous application
Conditional: Active player first, then non-active player before paid
Paid: Active player first, then non-active player
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Joshua Siegfried
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Niil945 wrote:
Butaman551 wrote:
Within the constant and conditional timing phases, if there are multiple cards that trigger at the same time, the active player MUST trigger his abilities first. He can choose the order of his own abilities if there are multiple choices, but he cannot choose to let the other player trigger his constant or conditional abilities first.


That is not correct. Look at the example in the recent FAQ regarding Chum and Ice Carver. Unbroken Chum is in front, runner has Ice Carver. They go on to say that constant abilities happen simultaneously if multiple apply, thus a Chum sub would raise the strength at the same time the Ice Carver reduced the strength and it wouldn't die on encounter. It's on the bottom right of page 3 of the FAQ at this URL...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...

Edit: To put it simply the following is the sequence.

Constant: Always in effect before conditional and paid, simultaneous application
Conditional: Active player first, then non-active player before paid
Paid: Active player first, then non-active player


You are correct. Constant abilities are applied simultaneously. I should have known that...I was part of the discussion that originally argued about it.
: )
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Marcus Aurelius
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Niil945 wrote:
Butaman551 wrote:
Within the constant and conditional timing phases, if there are multiple cards that trigger at the same time, the active player MUST trigger his abilities first. He can choose the order of his own abilities if there are multiple choices, but he cannot choose to let the other player trigger his constant or conditional abilities first.


That is not correct. Look at the example in the recent FAQ regarding Chum and Ice Carver. Unbroken Chum is in front, runner has Ice Carver. They go on to say that constant abilities happen simultaneously if multiple apply, thus a Chum sub would raise the strength at the same time the Ice Carver reduced the strength and it wouldn't die on encounter. It's on the bottom right of page 3 of the FAQ at this URL...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...



This is a poor example as even if the runner could choose the order of constant abilities, the reason why the ice survives is because the ability that actually kills the ice is a conditional ability (Parasite: "is trashed if its strength is 0 or less.") and thus will trigger after all constant effects anyway.

Unless of course the parasite kill not a conditional ability but something entirely different that I don't understand in which case I'm completely wrong.
 
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Brian Moore
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Malvoli0 wrote:
This is a poor example as even if the runner could choose the order of constant abilities, the reason why the ice survives is because the ability that actually kills the ice is a conditional ability (Parasite: "is trashed if its strength is 0 or less.") and thus will trigger after all constant effects anyway.

Unless of course the parasite kill not a conditional ability but something entirely different that I don't understand in which case I'm completely wrong.


The only time it seems to matter, given the rulings and FAQ thus far, regarding the timing of constant or conditional abilities is if a player has a choice in the matter, such as taking a tag from Data Raven. Conditional abilities, in that case, can be done out of sequence even if there isn't a choice involved (using Aesops to sack a Wyldside where the runner normally can't choose to simply skip Wyldside). Unless there's something else on the table where a player choice matters in how things resolve then there is no active player chooses then inactive player chooses. Effects are simply resolving simultaneously due to their triggers happening at the same time.

Quote:
No. Chum’s ability is a required conditional effect that creates
a constant +2 strength effect. When the Runner encounters the
ice, both modifiers (Chum at +2 and Ice Carver at –1) apply at
the same time and the strength of Enigma would be 2.
 
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Joshua Siegfried
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Malvoli0 wrote:

This is a poor example as even if the runner could choose the order of constant abilities, the reason why the ice survives is because the ability that actually kills the ice is a conditional ability (Parasite: "is trashed if its strength is 0 or less.") and thus will trigger after all constant effects anyway.

Unless of course the parasite kill not a conditional ability but something entirely different that I don't understand in which case I'm completely wrong.


It's easy to confuse Constant abilities with Conditional abilities. Parasite's trashing effect is a Constant ability.

Quote:
Host ice has -1 strength for each virus counter on Parasite and is trashed if its strength is 0 or less.
When your turn begins, place 1 virus counter on Parasite.

Of course, Parasite's trash effect has a trigger (the strength reaching 0), but the effect is constant and will take effect as soon as that trigger is met. Just having a trigger does not make it a Conditional ability.

Conditional abilities will always (up until now at least) use the phrasing "when the runner...", "when your turn begins" or something very similar. The last part of Parasite's text on the other hand (when your turn begins, place 1 virus counter...), is a Conditional ability.

So the example he gave above is perfectly valid.
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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Well that explains it. It feels weird for an ability to be constant if it has a trigger to it though.
 
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Joshua Siegfried
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Malvoli0 wrote:
Well that explains it. It feels weird for an ability to be constant if it has a trigger to it though.


Yeah, the terminology might not be perfect, but at least it's consistent.
 
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