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Subject: I Want CW6e To Follow The Munchkin Strategy rss

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Paul Chapman
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I want a CW basic boxed set that covers just the basics of arena dueling (focusing on driving fast and blowing things up) -- quick to set up, quick to learn, quick to play, and easy to bring to the gaming table with casual gamers. Just like Munchkin.

I want monthly expansions that give players more options without changing too much of the core infrastructure, like new arenas, new classifications of vehicles, persistent characters (aka roleplaying), and more game components (fold up turrets, fancy turning keys). The focus is maximum extension of replayability and minimum new rules to learn. Just like Munchkin 2 through . . . what are you up to now, Andrew?

I want annual rethemes of the core set, like Crossbows & Chassis (the early days of autodueling in the badlands), Dueltrack (racing), Death Truckers (big rigs, sure, but really about playing a team instead of single vehicle), International Autoduel Campaign 2115 (building a driver up from rookie to ace, with "team manager" aspects), Future Duel (autodueling with ultra tech), or CW Minis (adding the third dimension). These should introduce new rules as needed. Just like Munchkin Zombies, Star Munchkin, Munchkin Cthulhu, Munchkin Pathfinder . . . you get the idea.

This is what I want. I want it because I believe it is the best plan to bring in new players, casual players, hard-core players, mainstream players. I believe it is the best plan to give SJG a solid return on their development investment, and to generate enough sales to keep SJG's attention for years to come. It's the strategy Munchkin uses, and it's proven to be successful.

This is what I want. I'm not entitled to it. I don't have any more influence on SJG's decisions for CW6e than other consumers. I don't expect my desires to be shared by anyone else.

This is what I want. But you know what? If I don't get it, if I get nothing more than a reprint of an earlier ruleset with some fancier components, I'm still going to get a copy, and I'm still going to play it.

Because I love driving fast and blowing things up.
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Chris Bender
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I think you have some good ideas. I like the idea of many smaller purchases rather than one large one.

I play a lot of collectible / expandable games like Magic and Dominion, and I think it'd be great to be able to buy Car Wars in that manner. Kind of like they tried to do with 5th edition, but with actual components instead of just a book, and a better rules set.
 
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Peter Darby
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This is, of course, pretty much how Car Wars started...
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pete_darby wrote:
This is, of course, pretty much how Car Wars started...


That's how I got started with it. The original Car Wars pocket box, then the Sunday Drivers, Truck Stop, etc. Good times.

Those pocket boxes were my first intro to hobby games right after the D&D red box. They were only $6 at the time. I also bought Ogre and Illuminati in pocket box format. Those pocket box games were some excellent deals.
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PaulChapman wrote:
I want a CW basic boxed set that covers just the basics of arena dueling (focusing on driving fast and blowing things up) -- quick to set up, quick to learn, quick to play, and easy to bring to the gaming table with casual gamers. Just like Munchkin.


Yes, it would be nice if Car Wars could function just like Munchkin as far as sales and popularity. However, hopefully SJG takes a good hard look at what Car Wars is and what Munchkin is. Wanting it to be like Munchkin may be alot different than it actually performing like Munchkin.

PaulChapman wrote:
I want monthly expansions... Just like Munchkin 2 through . . . what are you up to now, Andrew?


Does SJG have the bandwidth to create monthly expansions? Will the fan base support it?

PaulChapman wrote:
This is what I want. I want it because I believe it is the best plan to bring in new players, casual players, hard-core players, mainstream players. I believe it is the best plan to give SJG a solid return on their development investment, and to generate enough sales to keep SJG's attention for years to come. It's the strategy Munchkin uses, and it's proven to be successful.


That's what was thought with 5e too. I know SJG is going to rectify a lot of mistakes that were made with that edition but I can't help but feel that pinning your strategy on duplicating what works for Munchkin is not going to work with Car Wars. They are just too diverse.

PaulChapman wrote:
This is what I want. I'm not entitled to it. I don't have any more influence on SJG's decisions for CW6e than other consumers. I don't expect my desires to be shared by anyone else.


I'd expect your opinion pulls at least a bit more weight than the average joe on the street just as I'd expect there are quite a few people that share those same desires.

PaulChapman wrote:
This is what I want. But you know what? If I don't get it, if I get nothing more than a reprint of an earlier ruleset with some fancier components, I'm still going to get a copy, and I'm still going to play it.


Well, I have all the previous rulesets and I have upgraded my components to Micro Machines and Hot Wheels so fancier components really don't hold much appeal for me.

I don't want Munchkin Car Wars and I don't want CW 5.5.

I want a new ruleset that it clearly written, cleans up the clutter, retains what works, and allows me and a whole new set of players to have a better time driving fast and blowing things up.



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Bradley Eng-Kohn
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kjamma4 wrote:
I want a new ruleset that it clearly written, cleans up the clutter, retains what works, and allows me and a whole new set of players to have a better time driving fast and blowing things up.


Yes, this would be ideal
 
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Andrew Martin
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bengkohn wrote:
kjamma4 wrote:
I want a new ruleset that it clearly written, cleans up the clutter, retains what works, and allows me and a whole new set of players to have a better time driving fast and blowing things up.


Yes, this would be ideal


What?????!!!! No snowmobiles or boats in the initial release?????

 
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AMartin56 wrote:
bengkohn wrote:
kjamma4 wrote:
I want a new ruleset that it clearly written, cleans up the clutter, retains what works, and allows me and a whole new set of players to have a better time driving fast and blowing things up.


Yes, this would be ideal


What?????!!!! No snowmobiles or boats in the initial release?????



Well, my $0.02 worth. As much as I'd like to see this as a continuing line, I think a one-and-done is the best option.

That being said, if it were one and done, include boats but ditch snowmobiles.
 
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Andrew Martin
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Sorry....I was being sarcastic. I'd actually be fine with cars (anything from subcompacts to pickups/vans) only in the initial release. But I could live with cars and motorcycles if they didn't want to limit things too much. Anything more than that would be too much bloat IMO. As I mentioned before I'd even be fine if they left out the pedestrian rules until later.
 
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AMartin56 wrote:
Sorry....I was being sarcastic. I'd actually be fine with cars (anything from subcompacts to pickups/vans) only in the initial release. But I could live with cars and motorcycles if they didn't want to limit things too much. Anything more than that would be too much bloat IMO. As I mentioned before I'd even be fine if they left out the pedestrian rules until later.


My concern is a repeat of 5e - big plans for future expansions and a continuing line that never comes to fruition. That's why my vote is for a one-and-done.
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Andrew Martin
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kjamma4 wrote:
AMartin56 wrote:
Sorry....I was being sarcastic. I'd actually be fine with cars (anything from subcompacts to pickups/vans) only in the initial release. But I could live with cars and motorcycles if they didn't want to limit things too much. Anything more than that would be too much bloat IMO. As I mentioned before I'd even be fine if they left out the pedestrian rules until later.


My concern is a repeat of 5e - big plans for future expansions and a continuing line that never comes to fruition. That's why my vote is for a one-and-done.


One and done is fine too, but IMO only if it's around the complexity of the original white box. I'm sure they have their fans, but boats, planes and tanks (etc) IMO were just silly. I know why SJG added them (to keep the product line alive) but I don't think they really added anything to the experience. Even big rigs are a stretch for me but at least they traveled on roads and fit the original 'Road Warrior'theme.
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Paul Chapman
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kjamma4 wrote:
PaulChapman wrote:
I want monthly expansions... Just like Munchkin 2 through . . . what are you up to now, Andrew?


Does SJG have the bandwidth to create monthly expansions? Will the fan base support it?


SJG didn't have the bandwidth or the market for monthly Munchkin expansions in 2000; now they do. Give the game a broad enough appeal, and the bandwidth will be found.

kjamma4 wrote:
PaulChapman wrote:
This is what I want. I want it because I believe it is the best plan to bring in new players, casual players, hard-core players, mainstream players. I believe it is the best plan to give SJG a solid return on their development investment, and to generate enough sales to keep SJG's attention for years to come. It's the strategy Munchkin uses, and it's proven to be successful.


That's what was thought with 5e too. I know SJG is going to rectify a lot of mistakes that were made with that edition but I can't help but feel that pinning your strategy on duplicating what works for Munchkin is not going to work with Car Wars. They are just too diverse.


As others have pointed out, the Munchkin path is very similar to the original Car Wars release path, and other very non-Munchkin games follow it: Settlers of Catan, Arkham Horror, Android: Netrunner, etc.

kjamma4 wrote:
PaulChapman wrote:
This is what I want. I'm not entitled to it. I don't have any more influence on SJG's decisions for CW6e than other consumers. I don't expect my desires to be shared by anyone else.


I'd expect your opinion pulls at least a bit more weight than the average joe on the street just as I'd expect there are quite a few people that share those same desires.


If my opinion and the ideas shaped by it are good, they'll have weight. If they're bad for business, they'll get ignored . . . just like everyone else.

kjamma4 wrote:
I want a new ruleset that it clearly written, cleans up the clutter, retains what works, and allows me and a whole new set of players to have a better time driving fast and blowing things up.


I agree with everything you say here, but suspect the "retains what works" is going have a very different definition from one Car Wars grognard to the next. And based on the first poll, the majority would apply "this doesn't work" to a large portion of those rules.
 
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PaulChapman wrote:
I agree with everything you say here, but suspect the "retains what works" is going have a very different definition from one Car Wars grognard to the next. And based on the first poll, the majority would apply "this doesn't work" to a large portion of those rules.


Yes, everyone will have their own opinion. That's not to say they can't agree on certain aspects.

Wanting a complete redesign doesn't mean that the majority of what is already there doesn't work. It may mean the portion that doesn't work may be so bad/time consuming/non-fun that it is overshadowing the good.

IMHO

1) There is more good than bad in the 2.5 rules

2) SJG are going to put more faith in what they want to do for the game than they are in the result of the polls (although the polls will probably have SOME effect on what comes down the pike.)

 
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kjamma4 wrote:

1) There is more good than bad in the 2.5 rules

2) SJG are going to put more faith in what they want to do for the game than they are in the result of the polls (although the polls will probably have SOME effect on what comes down the pike.)


Since SJG is writing the polls and poll options, and Phill has strongly said that they are constrained by the poll results, I wouldn't count on #2.

They've already said #1 (2.5 derivation) is out the window - they carved up the options to divide support. (They publicly repost the poll results.) Some version of 2.5 was 3 of the options - totalled, they got well more than the "New Design" - but as it was a single option, it won.
 
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aramis wrote:
kjamma4 wrote:

1) There is more good than bad in the 2.5 rules

2) SJG are going to put more faith in what they want to do for the game than they are in the result of the polls (although the polls will probably have SOME effect on what comes down the pike.)


Since SJG is writing the polls and poll options, and Phil has strongly said that they are constrained by the poll results, I wouldn't count on #2.

They've already said #1 (2.5 derivation) is out the window - they carved up the options to divide support. (They publicly repost the poll results.) Some version of 2.5 was 3 of the options - totalled, they got well more than the "New Design" - but as it was a single option, it won.


#1 was more a statement than what I think SJG is going to do. However, even though the poll winner was "a complete redesign", that doesn't mean elements of 2.5 won't make their way in. It just means they are not starting with 2.5 and taking things out.

#2 is strictly my opinion but I've highlighted portions of your response that I am using to formulate my opinion (as well as what I perceive as the undertone of the 6e discussion). Take if for what it is worth.

 
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aramis wrote:
They've already said #1 (2.5 derivation) is out the window - they carved up the options to divide support. (They publicly repost the poll results.) Some version of 2.5 was 3 of the options - totalled, they got well more than the "New Design" - but as it was a single option, it won.


Not true.

The poll results are here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=1546153&postcount=2

Some version of the 2.5 rules were included in 5 of the 7 options (but all used the 2.5 rules as a touchstone).

If you total all the votes for those 5 options, it would total higher than the winning option. However, of those 5 . . .

Two options were "don't change 2.5," which contradicts the other three options.

Two were "start with 2.5 and make it faster/much faster," which contradicts the other three.

One was "start with 2.5 and make it more complex," which contradicts the other four.

Lumping them all together would mean merging multiple contradictory POVs.
 
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PaulChapman wrote:
Not true.
Two were "start with 2.5 and make it faster/much faster," which contradicts the other three.

One was "start with 2.5 and make it more complex," which contradicts the other four.

Lumping them all together would mean merging multiple contradictory POVs.


Except that more complex does not contradict faster/much faster, especially in light of Poll #3 where

"Vehicle design should be of a similar complexity to 2.5 with lots of depth and several options. Game play should be streamlined and faster than 2.5."

took 83.82% of the vote.

A complete redesign is still the winner but the margin over the combined faster/much faster & more complex is less than 2%.
 
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Firstly I'll say that I'm perfectly happy with the old deluxe car wars ruleset. I found it reasonably simple and robust for what it was trying to accomplish. But..... since things are going to change, well, here's my thoughts.

Games seem to be heading down the path of putting simple rules into the rulebook and then adding complexity in the form of cards. So back up the ruleset to 1st edition level of content with a few improvements developed later, for example go gridless with turn templates. Each car type would have a corresponding cardboard sheet with all specific rules associated with it on the sheet (ex. compact cars are -1 to hit). It would also have a current speed dial and a current HC dial. They would also have a speed change dial so that speed changes can be done in secret, and it would also tell you the difficulty of the change. Maybe different car types would have different change dials reflecting better or worse handling capability.

Accessories and weapons would be on separate component cards and players would use a point system to acquire components for their cars, limited by restrictions on their car sheet (ala star wars miniatures). The component cards would have all the rules necessary for the specific components.

The basic set would consist of a few car types, and a bunch of component cards. Expansions would add more car types and components.

The game would also include minis.... not fancy ones but I'm thinking simple ones like the ones that came with ThunderRoad. There would be no board because the game is gridless, but it would come with 3D assembleable cardboard arena structures. Again, expansion packs could be sold to get more structures. Maybe some structures would come with rule cards (ex a pillbox with a machine gun) so that they can be active scenery, rather than passive.

Anyway, this is just an outline for a game that should enable SJG to make lots of money with expansions and should be a likable system for players. I'm just afraid of a complete redesign because if too much is changed, it may go the way of D&D4e. You really need to retain the fundamental game mechanics of the original very successful game because if you don't, it effectively becomes a new game platform and you'll fracture the player community.

BTW, I agree that poll question was pretty badly done but I doubt it was malicious. There's no way to tell how badly the 2.5 crowd was divided unless one was to repoll with better questions, but I'd guess it would be about even split between keeping 2.5 as a basis and doing a redesign.

Chris Larsson
 
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igelkott255 wrote:
I'm just afraid of a complete redesign because if too much is changed, it may go the way of D&D4e. You really need to retain the fundamental game mechanics of the original very successful game because if you don't, it effectively becomes a new game platform and you'll fracture the player community.


The poll called for a complete redesign but it seems as some don't believe you can redesign the game by using some mechanisms from the existing (2.5) game. I'm a big advocate of keeping the stuff that works from 2.5 and also getting rid of (and redesigning) what doesn't work.

igelkott255 wrote:
BTW, I agree that poll question was pretty badly done but I doubt it was malicious.


I also wouldn't use the word malicious. However, I do believe that there is a clear direction SJG wants to take and the polls, intentionally or not, seem to lean in that direction.
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kjamma4 wrote:
I'm a big advocate of keeping the stuff that works from 2.5 and also getting rid of (and redesigning) what doesn't work.


I think lots of people would agree with that statement; however, the devil's in the details. What "works" for one person may be horribly broken or distractingly un-fun to others.
 
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Personally, I'm rolling my own 1/144 scale car combat game.
 
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