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Subject: Red Scare Vs Vietnam Revolts rss

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Greece
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Hello all. I'd like to gently ask for your lights.

Situation as it has: USA headlines "Red scare/Purge" and USSR "Vietnam revolts". Now, the russian want to play an 1op card to the SW Asia area. This card, a) will be played as 1op card (as both events applies and the card is played uninfluenced of any +/- to its power or b will be played as 2ops card, because of the "to a minumum value of 1" that "Red Scare" has to the bottom line of his event???

Tricky? I was tricked myself as I was just told that, in Wargameroom, it occures right the option "b"!

Please, reply only if you're quite positive about the answer. Thank you in advance!
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Keng Leong Yeo
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It is 2ops whichever way I look at it.

Case 1: Apply "Red Scare/Purge" first, stays at 1op. Then apply "Vietnam Revolts", increases to 2ops.

Case 2: Apply Vietnam Revolts" first, increases to 2ops. Then apply "Red Scare/Purge", reduces back to 1op.

Edit: Ignore what I wrote above. I wasn't thinking straight. blush
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Martin Smith
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Yeoster wrote:
It is 2ops whichever way I look at it.

Case 1: Apply "Red Scare/Purge" first, stays at 1op. Then apply "Vietnam Revolts", increases to 2ops.

Case 2: Apply Vietnam Revolts" first, increases to 2ops. Then apply "Red Scare/Purge", reduces back to 1op.


Your logic makes no sense here - your case 2 actually gives you 1OP, not 2.
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Russ Hewson
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I think this question can give 'What are the coloured dots at the bottom of the Mage Knight character cards' in Mage Knight (The List for the Most Popular Mage Knight Board Game Rules Question) a run for it's money as the most frequently asked rules question that is clearly in the rulebook!

It's 1 op, order doesn't matter, add up all the modifiers first and apply to the card after. 7.4 in the Living Rules.
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Harold Coleman
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I think this is addressed adequately in Rule 7.4: "These modifiers should be applied in aggregate..." Aggregate is defined by one online dictionary as "formed by the conjunction or collection of particulars into a whole mass or sum." So I interpret the rule to mean: sum all the effects of the events in play (including the card just played), then apply that sum to the Ops. Besides, any other interpretation would lead to the confusion similar to the first response. So the answer is "1 Op" in the scenario posed.

The EXAMPLE given for Rule 7.4 is exactly as posed by the OP, but applied to the China Card. However, it does not adequately address how to apply the effects to a "1 OP" card, but I believe the "in aggregate" comment does when taken literally.
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Kristian Thy
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Here's the last thread on the issue with almost the exact same headline.
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First of all, I'm realy sorry I re-open a topic widely discussed in here (yes, I did my homework waitting for an answer). Many toopics opened (and closed) because of this question.

Still, I think that, there's no crystal answer for or against any of the two opinions, at least in here and that's why I insisted.

Doeas any of the developers gave some interpretation to the "in aggregate" word on the 7.4 rule? And, specificaly, in the ocasion of a "1op card" situation? Or we are talking about a "home ground rule" between the two players after all???

Thanx again for your patience cool
 
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If you already know they're there, why don't you post in the existing threads instead of opening a new one?
 
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manatziaras wrote:
First of all, I'm realy sorry I re-open a topic widely discussed in here (yes, I did my homework waitting for an answer). Many toopics opened (and closed) because of this question.

Still, I think that, there's no crystal answer for or against any of the two opinions, at least in here and that's why I insisted.

Doeas any of the developers gave some interpretation to the "in aggregate" word on the 7.4 rule? And, specificaly, in the ocasion of a "1op card" situation? Or we are talking about a "home ground rule" between the two players after all???

Thanx again for your patience cool


"Apply the modifiers in aggregate" means to first aggregate (i.e. add) the modifiers together yielding a single overall modifier, and then apply that result to the card. So in your example, -1 + +1 = 0, so the card is unchanged.
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turbothy wrote:
If you already know they're there, why don't you post in the existing threads instead of opening a new one?


Thank you captain obvious! I went "there" after realising that there's no answer in here capable to resolve the "aggregate" riddle...

To all the other fellows that answered to my question, a big "thank you". Maybe sometime, one of the developers will share with us their wisdom, and stop arguing about this issue...ninja
 
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Russ Hewson
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I promise you there isn't any riddle, the rule as explained is how it is intended by the designers (there isn't any riddle in the word 'aggregate' either), I heard this second hand (in that someone who I asked had previously specifically one of the designers).

The only reason anyone is confused is that people keep ignoring the rules (and the long standing players, and the FAQ) and making others think there is a questions when there isn't. I now resolve that this is the last time I post in one of these threads.
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Uhtoff wrote:
I promise you there isn't any riddle, the rule as explained is how it is intended by the designers (there isn't any riddle in the word 'aggregate' either), I heard this second hand (in that someone who I asked had previously specifically one of the designers).

The only reason anyone is confused is that people keep ignoring the rules (and the long standing players, and the FAQ) and making others think there is a questions when there isn't. I now resolve that this is the last time I post in one of these threads.


Well, I'm still waiting for one of the designers to rule that the Space Race roll is done via a six-sided die. It doesn't specify in the rules, so I've been using a d10-8 until I get official clarification.
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Aaron Tang
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Uhtoff wrote:
The only reason anyone is confused is that people keep ignoring the rules (and the long standing players, and the FAQ) and making others think there is a questions when there isn't. I now resolve that this is the last time I post in one of these threads.


It's not in the FAQs. It's also not clear in the rules, as the examples never have cases where the "to a minimum of 1 op" clause is triggered.

So while it is widely agreed upon that the way everyone described should be the way it is played, it is not immediately obvious to those who try to follow the rules closely.

Anyone with casual programming, or even elementary math experience would immediately recognize that order of operations can matter, especially with conditional clauses that can either trigger at the time one particular modifier is applied, or when an overall modifier is applied.
 
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Aaron Tang
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jaysachs wrote:
Well, I'm still waiting for one of the designers to rule that the Space Race roll is done via a six-sided die. It doesn't specify in the rules, so I've been using a d10-8 until I get official clarification.


You joke, but at least the component list is in the rulebooks, and it's implied that the game components provided should be used for the game.
 
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BockBockChicken wrote:
Uhtoff wrote:
The only reason anyone is confused is that people keep ignoring the rules (and the long standing players, and the FAQ) and making others think there is a questions when there isn't. I now resolve that this is the last time I post in one of these threads.


It's not in the FAQs. It's also not clear in the rules, as the examples never have cases where the "to a minimum of 1 op" clause is triggered.

So while it is widely agreed upon that the way everyone described should be the way it is played, it is not immediately obvious to those who try to follow the rules closely.

Anyone with casual programming, or even elementary math experience would immediately recognize that order of operations can matter, especially with conditional clauses that can either trigger at the time one particular modifier is applied, or when an overall modifier is applied.


Maybe it's not "immediate obvious", but should become clear on understanding the accepted definition of "aggregate" means, and understanding what it means in the context of section 7.4 "These modifiers should be applied in aggregate". When the modifiers (which are simply additive) are aggregated and then applied, order doesn't matter, as anyone with elementary math experience would immediately recognize.
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You can try to misquote me all you want, but you're ignoring my point regarding conditional statements. If the modifiers never change (i.e., always +1, -1), then there is no problem - and even you, with elementary math experience, can do the math.

However, as I have stated before (and you have convenient chose to ignore), the modifiers themselves change. The cards often say "(to a minimum of 1 op)" or something to that effect. This could be taken to mean that the modifier does not apply if the op value of the card - at the time it is applied - is already at 1. Apparently this is not something that you immediately recognize.

Again, you're reading too much into "aggregate", and arguing beyond what is stated.

"Feeling snarky" indeed. I think I've made my point fairly clear across multiple threads. I'm not disagreeing with this interpretation of the rules, but to claim that somehow the rulebook is clear and thus support this popular interpretation of the rules is to argue beyond your means. Something to be applied "in aggregate" can still have conditional modifiers - you don't simply ignore those.

Let's take a simple example of calculating the cost of a bill. You can quite simply say that the total sum you need to pay is the aggregate of the order, tax, and tips. However, let's say that we've defined that "tips" should be 15%. 15% of what? The purchase order only? Order + tax? See, now there are two interpretations, and the sum is different. "Aggregate" just means you add them up. It does not address any dependencies of the items to be summed. Now let's say the tip should be 15% or $10, whichever is less. Once again, when you calculate the tip matters. In the absence of a rigorous mathematical definition, there is room for ambiguity.

I don't think I can make it any more clear. Besides, the fact that this is a recurring question demonstrates that the rules themselves are not clear. Believe me, I'll be the first to jump on someone with the rules if they're clearly stated. In this case, it simply isn't. This is the ruling of the community - it makes sense, it is simplest to implement, and therefore should be the way it is played.
 
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No, the resaurant is just asking you to 'please pay us in aggregate.' i.e. 'just give us money once, please.'

And you're saying 'what do you mean in aggregate!! How much should the tip be!!!!!??'

And they look at you and say '15 percent of the bill sir.'

And if you're still confused about how to calculate a tip, and about how to put money into someone's hand, they're probably going to snicker at you.

(Because your analogy made no sense.)
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Aaron Tang
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What you said at first is exactly my point - aggregate doesn't say anything about conditional modifiers. So yes... that is the point of the analogy...

Never mind...
 
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Jay Sachs
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If the conditions are taken into account for each atomic modifier, then you're not computing an aggregate and then applying it, you're applying each modifier in some order.

Furthermore, the "conditionals" are more properly upper and lower bounds, not arbitrary conditions. And while no definition of how to aggregate bounds is given in the rules, [1, 4] "aggregated" with [1, 4] is just [1, 4].

Determine the aggregate, then apply it.

The computed aggregate of the cards is the sum of the additive modifiers, and the repeated application of the bounds, done separately (otherwise you're applying them early).
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Aaron Tang
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You're repeating points I've previously covered, regarding order, and how the definition of "aggregate" does not negate that (or at all address that). The misguided objection to my analogy above illustrates just that.

And you've nailed it on the head with this statement:

"The computed aggregate of the cards is the sum of the additive modifiers, and the repeated application of the bounds, done separately (otherwise you're applying them early)."

The ambiguity in the rules is what you've declared to be "early" here, which is the point of contention. Nowhere does it state that the lower bound must be applied after summing the modifiers (and no, we were not talking about aggregating the bounds... Nice try with the [1,4] though, even though it's technically just a lower bound of op >= 1).

This is basically a moot point; I agree with the interpretation solely based on its popularity (as stated before). This is an exercise in logic - next time, when this very question inevitably crops up again, we will, once more, hear about how it's "all addressed in the rules", when in fact, the conclusion does not follow.

And it is clear to me that we will not go anywhere in this discussion of logical validity. At the end of the day, it really isn't my responsibility to correct others' failures in logic or failures in citation rigor. The correct interpretation was provided and that's all that matters.

Cheers. See you in other rules discussions, where hopefully we can have more fruitful discussions.
 
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