Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Advanced Search: Fog of War? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
W M
United States
Buffalo
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello all.

This is just a friendly suggestion to BGG's advanced search function.

BGG has no fog of war feature when one performs an advanced search under its board game mechanic search engine. The mechanic of secret unit deployment is available, but is this the same thing? One may have a secret deployment at the start of the game, but does the fog of war continue?

I did a search of Napoleonic games using the secret unit deployment option, and the results were limited. Many games which have fog of war like the Jours de Gloire Series which I found on another thread are not included, nor is the game Waterloo: The Fate of France which I own and think is a fantastic game.

I am certain that there are many other games out there which have the fog of war feature as part of the game mechanic which are not included in the advanced search.

Is this situation due to the failure to identify a game with the fog of war as part of the game mechanic, or is it due to the fact that there is no fog of war feature in the advanced search engine?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alfred Wallace
United States
Champaign
IL
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"Fog of War" isn't a currently recognized game mechanic, so it's not included under Advanced Search. New mechanics don't get added particularly often, since then by some process you have to go through all eleventy zillion games in the database, and usually what ends up happening anyway is that the mechanic ends up being "defined" in such a way as to include a lot of false positives. This is basically what happened to "area impulse."

ADD: This isn't just a wargames thing. It happens everywhere. "Dice rolling" went from applying to games where you're rolling dice as the heart of the game--Yahtzee--and has now included every single game where you roll dice ever, even just once. Defining "Fog of War"--it'd probably be called "Hidden Information"--in such a way as to include block games and not bridge (you know your hand, others don't) would be a challenge--or, at least, to define it in such a way that everyone would accept and follow. It's never worked yet.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Confusion Under Fire
United Kingdom
Warrington
Cheshire
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At least with "dice rolling" there is a definite criteria, you must roll a die at least once in the game. Fog of War can be interpreted in so many different ways. Dummy markers, hidden units, alternative set ups at one end of the scale and unknown rolling terrain, lack of own unit information etc at the other and so much more inbetween. What one person classes as FoW another might just see it as a normal mechanic in a wargame.

The problem is, is that a lot of designers will include the FoW tag just to get their game seen by more players which rather negates the whole idea of having a FoW search item.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mb
whatambush wrote:
At least with "dice rolling" there is a definite criteria, you must roll a die at least once in the game.


It's people using that kind of criteria which destroyed
the meaning as a mechanism.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
しんぶん赤旗
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
calandale wrote:
whatambush wrote:
At least with "dice rolling" there is a definite criteria, you must roll a die at least once in the game.


It's people using that kind of criteria which destroyed
the meaning as a mechanism.


Any chance of expanding this post into a 15 minute video rant? I have some bandwidth to burn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Forum search in the Wargames Forum is quite useful:

Games with real Fog of War
Which wargames make the best use of 'fog of war', uncertainty and general battlefield reality?

Geeklist search is another option:

The Blocks of War: My Top 10 Wooden Block "Fog of War" games
Hidden units or Fog of War

I don't think Fog of War would be a bad attribute to flag for game data (although it would undoubtedly raise arguments about what qualifies), just offering those in case they may be helpful.


7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pelle Nilsson
Sweden
Linköping
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some games have been tagged as fog of war.

http://boardgamegeek.com/tag/fogofwar
http://boardgamegeek.com/tag/fog_of_war

Maybe there are other similar tags as well. Looking at some of the popular games tagged with those two will probably reveal them (that is how I found fog_of_war).

EDIT: A few more that might be of interest:
http://boardgamegeek.com/tag/hidden-information
http://boardgamegeek.com/tag/fog-of-war
http://boardgamegeek.com/tag/doubleblind

Not sure if you can combine tags search with advanced search for wargames or other mechanics?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
W M
United States
Buffalo
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From what I see there is no consensus on the matter.

Moreover, there are multiple lists with varying games.

When one uses the advanced search option and then chooses Napoleonics for the board game category and then selects secret unit deployment games like OSG (Operational Studies Group) do not appear.

My comment was that maybe there should be a fog of war search engine for the advanced search engine.

I know the idea of fog of war is not defined, but maybe it should be an option. I think the best way to define it is by defining it as hidden units or unknown strength of enemy forces.

Thank you for those who responded.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
WLMIV wrote:
From what I see there is no consensus on the matter.

A BGG designation wouldn't change that - we can't reach consensus on "wargame", "luck", or a long list of other terms. Simple words are slippery in that they have multiple definitions and varying usages, making their employment as labels in categorization schemes problematic.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Enrico Viglino
United States
Eugene
OR
flag msg tools
Slowed - BGG's moderation policies have driven me partially from here
badge
http://thegamebox.byethost15.com/smf/
Avatar
mb
Sphere wrote:
WLMIV wrote:
From what I see there is no consensus on the matter.

A BGG designation wouldn't change that - we can't reach consensus on "wargame", "luck", or a long list of other terms. Simple words are slippery in that they have multiple definitions and varying usages, making their employment as labels in categorization schemes problematic.


But, the fact that something isn't perfect doesn't mean it serves no purpose.
I can look at the community voting for whether something is a wargame
and get a pretty good idea of where it sits on my own scale. While I can't
search on the category, it does sometimes help where there isn't sufficient
information in the game description. It also can serve as a filter - a
sort of minimum bar. A fair reason for the broad interpretation on the
site. It only really sticks in my craw when something that is in that
larger category (maybe because 35% of people call it such) is deemed
'the best' of the category.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.