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Subject: E3 Feedback Implants? Self Feeding? rss

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Tragic TheBlathering
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So dose E3 Feedback Implant feed itself?


Whenever you break a subroutine on a piece of ice, you may pay 1 [Credits] to break 1 additional subroutine on that ice.


I'm a little confused about the word "additional" on this card. Why is it there. Can you only use this card to break "1 additional" sub, or is that sub you use the extra credit for to break count as a broken sub and feed the card so you can use it again..

Example..

ice with 4 subs...
1-broken with ice breaker
2-break an additional with E3 + credit
3-As 2 was just broken: break an additional with E3 + credit
4-As 3 was just broken: break an additional with E3 + credit

effectively meaning you can break anything once and then 1 credit per sub?

Is so.. why dose it have the word additional at all?

Is it instead..

ice with 4 subs...
1-Broken with ice breaker
2-Break additional with E3
3-Breka with ice breaker
4-Break additional with e3

This card seams bonkers powerful.. if it is option 1.. then it destroys HB decks.. spend 1 click and say 3 credits to break their ice .. no ice breakers needed... While 2 is still powerful but not stupid powerful.

I think it is probably option 1... but I sorta hope it is option 2.

???
 
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It is indeed option 1. So to break Janus 1.0 costs 1 click and 3 credits using E3 Feedback Implants.
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Mat Nowak
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This is answered in the FAQ:

Quote:
Can e3 Feedback Implants be used to break a subroutine by triggering off of itself, meaning that the Runner can break all
subroutines on Janus 1.0 by spending [click] and 3 credits?

Yes. e3 Feedback Implants triggers itself, so the Runner can
break all subroutines on Janus 1.0 for a single [click] and 3 credits.
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Jack Keys
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This question is addressed in the official FAQ, available here:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...

For convenience, here is the relevant passage:

FAQ wrote:
Can E3 Feedback Implants be used to break a subroutine by
triggering off of itself, meaning that the Runner can break all
subroutines on Janus 1.0 by spending [Click] and 3[Credits]?


Yes. e3 Feedback Implants triggers itself, so the Runner can
break all subroutines on Janus 1.0 for a single [Click] and 3[Credits]
 
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Tragic TheBlathering
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DrTall wrote:
It is indeed option 1. So to break Janus 1.0 costs 1 click and 3 credits using E3 Feedback Implants.


knew it.. but didn't want to believe it.
 
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Brian Moore
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I wonder if we can get the FAQ sticked in a post with the link.
 
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TragicTheBlathering wrote:
DrTall wrote:
It is indeed option 1. So to break Janus 1.0 costs 1 click and 3 credits using E3 Feedback Implants.


knew it.. but didn't want to believe it.


There's a reason they came in the same set (Uhh... I think they came in the same set, at least...). If Janus didn't have a counter, it'd be pretty demolishing.
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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Honestly, Janus is pretty underwhelming overall because of it's cost, even though he got improved with Oversight AI, as you have quite a few ways to rez it for free now. If it's a Remote or a final milled Archives run you can always just take the brain damage or click 3 times with 1 brain damage taken. It's 10 with Ninja, and 12 with Crypsis. It's only truly good on r&d and HQ. E3 chip makes it into a joke though.
 
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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I Eat Tables wrote:
TragicTheBlathering wrote:
DrTall wrote:
It is indeed option 1. So to break Janus 1.0 costs 1 click and 3 credits using E3 Feedback Implants.


knew it.. but didn't want to believe it.


There's a reason they came in the same set (Uhh... I think they came in the same set, at least...). If Janus didn't have a counter, it'd be pretty demolishing.


Well... It didn't. Janus came in the first data pack and E3 came in the second. So for about one month Janus (and all bioroids) were devastating. They still are, but at least there is E3.

The same thing was with SE combo and Plascrete Carapace.
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Tragic TheBlathering
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The power and lasting impact of E3 goes far beyond the short term counter for a single ice. What is wrong with E3 imo, is that it negates the weights put on ice.

When they make a "great ice" they make it harder to use by making the strength boost or the sub break costly. E3 removes the weight of a costly sub break, making powerful ice.. much more powerful, maybe more than designed.. (witch is why they weigh it down in the 1st place)

E3's impact will not be felt for a while, when there is a lot of ice of varying utility. I predict this card will be a problem for corpo decks for a long long long time, as it will only get more and more powerful and is the 1st card I have seen in ANR that I feel really messes with the entire game and could be a candidate for restriction, depending on how powerful the ice gets in time and how much easier it makes that ice to use by removing the ice's weighting.
 
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Justin
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I Eat Tables wrote:
There's a reason they came in the same set (Uhh... I think they came in the same set, at least...). If Janus didn't have a counter, it'd be pretty demolishing.

Breaking Janus with a Ninja costs 10, same as an Archer. Another counter is to not let your opponent mass money.
 
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Steven Tu
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TragicTheBlathering wrote:
The power and lasting impact of E3 goes far beyond the short term counter for a single ice. What is wrong with E3 imo, is that it negates the weights put on ice.

When they make a "great ice" they make it harder to use by making the strength boost or the sub break costly. E3 removes the weight of a costly sub break, making powerful ice.. much more powerful, maybe more than designed.. (witch is why they weigh it down in the 1st place)

E3's impact will not be felt for a while, when there is a lot of ice of varying utility. I predict this card will be a problem for corpo decks for a long long long time, as it will only get more and more powerful and is the 1st card I have seen in ANR that I feel really messes with the entire game and could be a candidate for restriction, depending on how powerful the ice gets in time and how much easier it makes that ice to use by removing the ice's weighting.


I'm. It sure that's entirely true, e3 obviously devastates bioroids, that goes without saying, but we haven't seen HB become useless through e3's existence, not by a long shot. HB fast advance is in fact considered alongside noise as being "broken" strong. Not that I think so, but if that were the case, everyone and their dogs will be running e3 (just as everyone and their dog is running plascrete).

Outside of bioroids, the only real benefit e3 has is to assist second/third tier expensive breakers like aurora, wyrm and co where their cost to break per subroutine is more than 1.

In the case of first tier, primary breakers, the cost saving is non-existent.

So, for me I'm glad that they have a card that *could* bring cards that are otherwise crap into the limelight.
 
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Tragic TheBlathering
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It is all just potential. We need to see how it will interact with the future more powerful ice. How it plays in the current meta is besides the point.

The point I was trying to make was that this card negates ANR's design system for retarding cards (I have always called it "the card's weight"). Anyway, ANR makes good cards harder to use almost solely though credit costs, and this card bypasses it.. so it has the potential, in the future (i stress that this is not now), to really break this game, as there will be powerful ice, and this will (most likely) make them trivial to play as you can ignore any weights put on sub breaking costs.

I think this card will be a major player in the future for this reason.
 
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Jack Keys
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TragicTheBlathering wrote:
It is all just potential. We need to see how it will interact with the future more powerful ice. How it plays in the current meta is besides the point.

The point I was trying to make was that this card negates ANR's design system for retarding cards (I have always called it "the card's weight"). Anyway, ANR makes good cards harder to use almost solely though credit costs, and this card bypasses it.. so it has the potential, in the future (i stress that this is not now), to really break this game, as there will be powerful ice, and this will (most likely) make them trivial to play as you can ignore any weights put on sub breaking costs.

I think this card will be a major player in the future for this reason.


I don't see how this could break the game, though. The only time this becomes an issue is if the ICE itself has a way to be broken that doesn't require an icebreaker. For Bioroid ICE, it is very effective, but we will have 2.0 Bioroids that make it a little harder to use, it can be mitigated by stacking Bioroids and having healthy amounts of non-Bioroid ICE, and you can use Power Grid Overload if it's really crippling.

Now, you've mentioned that you're concerned about the future of the game, not the current state. Bioroid ICE is the only ICE we've seen that can be broken with something else besides an icebreaker, and E3 Feedback Implants is worthless unless it's used on a less efficient breaker, which is already typically going to cost a little bit more. As such, it can certainly help the sub-optimal breakers get a little better, but it doesn't have a huge impact on their overall weight, as you put it, and it still requires another card and its respective cost to use. Let's get a little less conventional. Let's say we get some kind of panic button AI icebreaker in the future that lets you break a single subroutine by trashing it. In this circumstance, you can then use this to break any piece of ICE in the game if you have E3 Feedback Implants, and it'll only cost you the icebreaker and X-1 credits, where X is the number of subroutines. This sounds pretty powerful, but it's limited use, and it's only so effective to use cards like Deja Vu and Test Run to keep doing this over and over, so even something like that isn't too much of a concern. Therefore, on the Runner side, I don't see how this could be a problem in the future.

Now, lets say we have a piece of ICE that says the Runner must pay one additional credit to break each subroutine. Well, E3 Feedback Implants is still breaking the subroutine, so you're looking at the same best-case savings with suboptimal breakers. Lets say that it specifically says that it costs one additional credit when using icebreakers, so E3 can ignore the additional cost. Well, that means that E3 Feedback Implants happens to make breaking this piece of ICE a little cheaper. It's still something relatively narrow, granting an advantage with a subset of ICE, and taking up space that could be used on more broadly useful cards.

I'm really struggling to see how this card could cause problems in the future. I understand what you're getting at with the weighting of cards, but I don't think this is disruptive as you seem to think, for some of the reasons I've stated above. Of course, given that you think this could be very far out, there could be cards we haven't thought of yet, but the designers would be keeping this in mind.

Do you have any specific cases where you're worried about it?
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Jeremy Larner
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Tuism wrote:
I'm. It sure that's entirely true, e3 obviously devastates bioroids, that goes without saying, but we haven't seen HB become useless through e3's existence, not by a long shot. HB fast advance is in fact considered alongside noise as being "broken" strong. Not that I think so, but if that were the case, everyone and their dogs will be running e3 (just as everyone and their dog is running plascrete).


To be fair, HB FA's success doesn't really have that much to do with E3, as most FA decks run relatively few bioroids (in my experience, it's often just 3 Ichi, with perhaps a couple of Heimdall or a single Viktor). If that's the case, E3 may not even be worth playing against HB FA.
 
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Steven Tu
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TragicTheBlathering wrote:
It is all just potential. We need to see how it will interact with the future more powerful ice. How it plays in the current meta is besides the point.

The point I was trying to make was that this card negates ANR's design system for retarding cards (I have always called it "the card's weight"). Anyway, ANR makes good cards harder to use almost solely though credit costs, and this card bypasses it.. so it has the potential, in the future (i stress that this is not now), to really break this game, as there will be powerful ice, and this will (most likely) make them trivial to play as you can ignore any weights put on sub breaking costs.

I think this card will be a major player in the future for this reason.


Even speaking about future design space, It basically only breaks bioroid ice due to their built in break "weakness", and unless they're going to add a similar kind breakerless breaking weakness to other ice, you'll always need a breaker to break ice. And we already have a bunch of "second tier" breakers that break 2 subs for 2c, or 1 sub for 2c/3c. So E3 helps those.

So yeah, sure it may limit design space, but I don't think it's a huge concern.

The existence of the new Ichi 2.0 is an elegant solution - you HAVE TO spend 2 clicks to break 2 subs, sure E3 can help you against the rest, but you have to spend 2 clicks already.

So... I don't feel particularly doomsday-y

ninjad
 
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Brian Moore
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Tuism wrote:
The existence of the new Ichi 2.0 is an elegant solution - you HAVE TO spend 2 clicks to break 2 subs, sure E3 can help you against the rest, but you have to spend 2 clicks already.


Tangent here, but wonder if the ruling that applies to False Leads applies to Ichi 2.0. Do we know how Ichi 2.0 is worded? If there are only 3 subroutines, does that mean that, regardless of All Nighter and other cards that give extra clicks, if it only had 3 the only way to break the last (presuming it has 3 subs like 1.0) is to boost a breaker and pay for it or E3.
 
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Ben Asher
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It certainly does apply to ichi 2.0. The wording is roughly the runner may spend [click][click] to break 2 subroutines. If it were intended that the runner could spend a single click to break a subroutine, the wording would not need to be different from the version 1.0 wording. That's what makes the version 2.0 bioroids good.
 
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Jack Keys
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Niil945 wrote:
Tuism wrote:
The existence of the new Ichi 2.0 is an elegant solution - you HAVE TO spend 2 clicks to break 2 subs, sure E3 can help you against the rest, but you have to spend 2 clicks already.


Tangent here, but wonder if the ruling that applies to False Leads applies to Ichi 2.0. Do we know how Ichi 2.0 is worded? If there are only 3 subroutines, does that mean that, regardless of All Nighter and other cards that give extra clicks, if it only had 3 the only way to break the last (presuming it has 3 subs like 1.0) is to boost a breaker and pay for it or E3.


Ichi 2.0 says the Runner can spend two clicks to break up to two subroutines. Therefore, if you used All-Nighter and ran on your first click, you could break all three subroutines.
 
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Frank Brooks
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You can see it on the left there:
"The runner can spend [click] [click] to break up to 2 subroutines on Ichi 2.0.

-Trash 1 program
-Trash 1 program
-Trace3(?)-If successful, give the Runner 1 tag and do 1 brain damage.

The game has changed"

The game has changed indeed.

Since it says "spend [click][click]" it means you need to have 2 clicks in order to spend them. As mentioned in a different thread, spend means that by losing them you gain something else. "lose [click][click]" means that you lose them at no gain. Also by specifying 2 clicks, you have to pay the whole cost or take the whole loss. (This is why false lead is exactly 2)
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Brian Moore
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Ah nice. Thank you Frank I hadn't seen that before.
 
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Thomas Berton
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I've got another E3 question and didn't feel like making a new thread.

Can recurring credits that say "Use these credits while making a run..." (for instance, those on Pheromones) be used for E3?

I want to say yes, since E3 is breaking subroutines, which happens during a run and Pheromones doesn't specify that its credits need to be used on icebreakers.

Thanks to anyone who responds.
 
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Ian Neufeld
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Credits received or usable "only during a run" by Pheromones, StimHack, Bad Publicity, etc are usable for ANY activated ability that's valid to use during a run.

This includes:

* paying for Traces
* paying to trash Assets
* triggering Icebreakers
* triggering E3 Feedback Implants
* paying the cost to steal an Agenda (due to Fetal AI and/or Red Herrings)
* unloading items from Personal Workshop
* paying costs on ICE (Pop-up Window/Tollbooth/Snowflake/Bullfrog)
* avoiding a tag with New Angeles City Hall
* Self-Modifying Code's dig ability or the install cost of the program it fetches

Simply: Any activated ability which doesn't include the Tick symbol as part of its activation cost can be paid for during a run using temporary credits.
 
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Thomas Berton
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That's what I figured. Thanks for the response!
 
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