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Subject: Destroying Overgrowth. Does the base still stay at 0? rss

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Mike Beiter
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Since Overgrowth is an ongoing effect, can it be destroyed to negate it's ability from happening if the active player chooses to play a card that destroys it?

Or does the base remain at 0 breaking point even after the card is destroyed?

We had a situation where the plant player played Overgrowth, and then I used my Bear cavalry to completely oust him from the base, and then on his next turn he wanted to destroy it so the base would not break and give me all the points.
Is it too late at that point?
 
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Wesley M
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I think he should be able to destroy it since at the beginning of his next turn the base would be reduced to 0 but it would be destroyed before you check for scoring.
 
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Mike Beiter
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That is the logic of one side of the debate. When Overgrowth goes, the base resets.

But the counter argument is that Overgrowth reduced it to 0, so it stays that way even after it leaves.
 
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J
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While there is an argument for either way I'd say that the card has to be on the base for it's power to be considered reduced.

Imagine a card that read:

Play on a minion, at the end of your turn reduce it's power to 0. If that card was removed later with another card would you argue that the minion's power is still 0?

Basically put the card has to be in play to cause it's effect and once it's removed the effect is gone.

The base might have been reduced to 0 breaking point but the only thing keeping it at 0 is the Overgrown card's Ongoing effect so if it's removed before scoring then that's just the way things go.
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Bryan Stout
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
We had a situation where the plant player played Overgrowth, and then I used my Bear cavalry to completely oust him from the base, and then on his next turn he wanted to destroy it so the base would not break and give me all the points.
Is it too late at that point?

For reference -- it always helps for these questions:
Overgrowth ability wrote:
Play on a base. Ongoing: At the start of your turn, reduce the breakpoint of this base to 0.

So yes, it is too late. At the start of the Killer Plant player's turn, the base's breakpoint is reduced to 0. Period. At the end of his turn, the base is scored no matter what. Otherwise it would have said something like "Ongoing: Starting with your next turn, the breakpoint of this base is 0 as long as this card is here."

Now if another player had destroyed Overgrowth before the Killer Plant player's next turn, then its ability would not have been invoked, and the base's breakpoint would not change.
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Wesley M
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The rule for ongoing though says

Ongoing
Most abilities happen and then they're over, or else they end at the end of the turn. Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're around.

So as soon as he destroys it the card is no longer around and the ability is gone.. The fact that it says at the start of your next turn is just pointing out when the effect will occur not permanently changing the base to a 0 breakpoint..Just like any ongoing effect the card still has to be there on the base to get the ongoing.
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Chris Smith
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Don't the rules state that as soon as the power on a base is over the breakpoint, it will be scored at end of turn no matter what? Even if every minion was removed during that turn for example?

It doesn't make any difference if its breakpoint stays at 0 or not then (i.e. Moot point) as it will still score
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Bryan Stout
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Riddlebox85 wrote:
The rule for ongoing though says

Ongoing
Most abilities happen and then they're over, or else they end at the end of the turn. Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're around.

True, but if the Ongoing ability itself limits its actions to certain times, then those are the only times when it happens. For example:

Quote:
Armor Stego:
Ongoing: Has +2 power during other players' turns.

This Ongoing ability specifies when it works.

Quote:
Choking Vines:
Play on a minion. Ongoing: At the start of your turn, destroy this minion.

This ability is a one-shot effect that is Ongoing, not because its effect is always active, but because it happens at a time later than when it is played -- just like Overgrowth.

And we can compare Overgrowth with:

Quote:
Rampage:
Reduce the breakpoint of a base by the power of one of your minions on that base until the end of the turn.

First, note that Rampage's effect lasts after it is played and discarded, so we shouldn't think that an Ongoing action's effect always stops once it is gone. Second, note that Rampage says when its effect ends, but Overgrowth does not, implying its effect is permanent -- which is not long since the base will be scored that turn.


I can see how people can interpret it the other way, so this is another good FAQ entry.
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johnny k
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I also believe that if the Overgrowth action is destroyed the base's breakpoint does NOT drop to 0. You check if a base breaks after you're done playing your minion(s)/action(s).
 
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David Combs
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Quote:
Don't the rules state that as soon as the power on a base is over the breakpoint, it will be scored at end of turn no matter what? Even if every minion was removed during that turn for example?

It doesn't make any difference if its breakpoint stays at 0 or not then (i.e. Moot point) as it will still score


The rules state that at the end of a turn you check to see if a base is broken, then it is scored. There are cards that let you move/play/destroy minions during the scoring phase. If during the scoring phase, minions are removed from the base and thereby bring the minion's power below the base's power, the base still scores.

During a player's turn, they could play a minion on a base that would bring the minion's power over the base's power. Then they could play an action that would remove an opponent's minion from that base and bring the minion power back below the base's power. Their turn ends and then you check to see if any of the bases break. Since at the end of the turn the minion power is less than the base power, the base doesn't score.
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Bryan Stout
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clerical_error wrote:
I also believe that if the Overgrowth action is destroyed the base's breakpoint does NOT drop to 0. You check if a base breaks after you're done playing your minion(s)/action(s).

I agree with the part I bolded. But Overgrowth reduced the breakpoint of the base to 0 at the start of the turn, a one-shot event that has no expiration condition (as opposed to Rampage). At the end of that turn, that base still has a breakpoint of 0 -- whether or not Overgrowth is still present -- so the base will be scored no matter what.

A couple more comparisons. Playing an Invader gives you 1 VP, and you do not lose the VP if that Invader is destroyed. High Ground will cause opposing minions that move to that base to be destroyed, and they are not un-destroyed if High Ground itself is destroyed later. Similarly, Overgrowth reduces the base's breakpoint to 0 at the start of its player's next turn, and the breakpoint is not un-reduced if the Overgrowth is destroyed afterward.

We're starting to go around in circles here, so I probably won't add more to the discussion. Let's hope for a ruling from one of the AEG folks soon.
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Wesley M
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Barliman wrote:
High Ground will cause opposing minions that move to that base to be destroyed, and they are not un-destroyed if High Ground itself is destroyed later.


Right but it also doesnt keep killing minions if you destroy it.
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Amund Christensen
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Since Overgrowth is an ongoing effect, can it be destroyed to negate it's ability from happening if the active player chooses to play a card that destroys it?

Or does the base remain at 0 breaking point even after the card is destroyed?

We had a situation where the plant player played Overgrowth, and then I used my Bear cavalry to completely oust him from the base, and then on his next turn he wanted to destroy it so the base would not break and give me all the points.
Is it too late at that point?


The base should break in the first score phase after the overgrowth is played...unless I read this wrong the base should be gone before the start of his next turn - no?
 
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Mike Beiter
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Atomikhammer wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Since Overgrowth is an ongoing effect, can it be destroyed to negate it's ability from happening if the active player chooses to play a card that destroys it?

Or does the base remain at 0 breaking point even after the card is destroyed?

We had a situation where the plant player played Overgrowth, and then I used my Bear cavalry to completely oust him from the base, and then on his next turn he wanted to destroy it so the base would not break and give me all the points.
Is it too late at that point?


The base should break in the first score phase after the overgrowth is played...unless I read this wrong the base should be gone before the start of his next turn - no?


Overgrowth does not actually trigger until the Plant players turn starts.
 
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Okay I'm looking everything over and here is the conclusion I reached.

First of all as far as I can tell there are as of now 4 ways abilities in this game are classified on either Minions or actions.

(No Prefix):
Ongoing:
Talent:
Special:


For the purpose of this topic Talent and Special abilities are not very relevant and are going to be ignored below.


First of all (No Prefix). If a card has a prefixless ability that ability always and only triggers when the card is played. They also appear to subdivided into into 2 further types

Type A has an immediate effect. Further there is some way for the game to track this ability.
Examples:
Invader: Gain a point -> Your score increases
Many: Kill/Move/Return a minion -> The minion's location changes and it stays at the new location.
Summon: Play an extra minion/action -> You play an extra card
There is no need for the card to stick around since their effect on the game is immediate and tracked in other ways.


Type B has an effect that lasts until the end of your turn. These abilities almost exclusively abilities that augment a minion's power. This makes sense since if a card that augmented power was a type A card than the minion's power would change and then immediately change back before the bases score.
Example's:
Swashbuckling/Howl: All minions gain +1 power till end of turn.
Augment: 1 minion gains +4 power till end of turn.
Rampage: Reduce the breakpoint of a base by the power of one of your minions on that base until the end of the turn.

While it might have made sense to have a mechanic to show that one of these cards was played generally 1 turn isn't long enough that people will be confused and forget that a card was played.


The other ability type is Ongoing. Cards with ongoing abilities have abilities that can continue to have an effect beyond the turn which they are played.
Examples:
Leprechaun: Destroy minions played on this base with less power - Continual minion destruction clause.
Warbot: This minion cannot be Destroyed - Continual protection
Upgrade: Play on a minion, This minion has +2 power - Continual power increase
Jammed Signal: Play on a base, All player's ignore this base's ability - Continual shutdown of base's ability.

Now take a look at the definition of Ongoing from the rulebook:

Quote:
Ongoing: Most abilities happen and then they're over, or else they end at the end of the turn. Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're around.


Notice how all 3 of these types are referenced
"Most abilities happen and then they're over..." Corresponds to Type A cards
"...or else they end at the end of the turn..." Corresponds to Type B cards
"Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're around." Corresponds to Ongoing cards (of course)

Now because it seems like this is going to be necessary to bring this up I'll try to say this in the least confusing way possible (though I'll probably fail). Some people might try to argue that Type A/B abilities can continue to have an effect on the game since, for example, if a minion is moved than even though the action card is gone the minion is in a new position and therefore the action card is still having an affect on the game. While it is true that the card's ability had a lasting effect on the game (relocating the minion) it is not true that the ability itself is still affecting the game.

Unfortunately there is no better way to explain this than by making up terms.

The ability "Move a minion" does have a "lasting" effect on the game since the minion is relocated

However the ability itself is no longer affecting the game. The ability moved the minion to a new location. The ability is not still moving the minion or holding the minion in that new location.

After the minion moved the ability itself is no longer having an effect on the game. The minion's new location is having an effect on the game but the cards role in relocating the minion is done and over.

Another example would be the Invader (+1 point on play). Yes that extra point you got is affecting the game but the Invader's ability itself no longer is. His ability had a lasting affect on the game but the ability itself is no longer affecting the game.


Now to get back on track.

It is worth noting that if an action card has an "Ongoing" effect it must be of the type "Play on a minion" or "Play on a base" cause otherwise there is no where for the card to be while affecting the game. There is no action card that has a continual affect on the game beyond the turn it is played that is not Ongoing.

Now Overgrown is an Ongoing card. Therefore as far as I can tell it is subject to the same restrictions as every other Ongoing card namely "Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're around" and as far as I can tell this means that if the card gets removed the bases power jumps back to it's original power even on your next turn.


Now I'll try to address some of the counter Arguments that have been presented.

Barliman wrote:
For reference -- it always helps for these questions:
Overgrowth ability wrote:
Play on a base. Ongoing: At the start of your turn, reduce the breakpoint of this base to 0.


So yes, it is too late. At the start of the Killer Plant player's turn, the base's breakpoint is reduced to 0. Period. At the end of his turn, the base is scored no matter what. Otherwise it would have said something like "Ongoing: Starting with your next turn, the breakpoint of this base is 0 as long as this card is here."

Now if another player had destroyed Overgrowth before the Killer Plant player's next turn, then its ability would not have been invoked, and the base's breakpoint would not change.


Here you seem to be treating the Overgrown's Ongoing ability as if you are playing a delayed (No Prefix) ability ie like a card that read:

"(No Prefix) Reduce the breakpoint of this base to 0".
Treating it as if you played this ability at the start of your next turn is faulty however as if a (no prefix) ability doesn't specify that continues to affect the game until the end of turn than it only affects the game for the instant that it is played which would mean for a second at the start of turn the base's breakpoint was reduced to 0 but than it goes back to being normal. Common sense says this was not what was intended.

Further while I do acknowledge that right now there is no way to prevent a 0 Breakpoint base from breaking a theoretical future card with the ability to prevent a base from breaking even if it's power is met would require the base to continue having 0 power beyond the player's turn and there is no (no prefix) ability that continues to have an affect beyond the turn which it is played.
.
Also please look at every Ongoing ability in the game. You'll notice that most (if not all) of them do not use any form of the words "as long as this card is here." If what you said was true every Ongoing card would continue to have it's affect even if it was destroyed.

Barliman wrote:
True, but if the Ongoing ability itself limits its actions to certain times, then those are the only times when it happens. For example:

Quote:
Armor Stego:
Ongoing: Has +2 power during other players' turns.

This Ongoing ability specifies when it works.

This is a good point and someone trying to draw a comparison might think that Overgrown ONLY reduces the power of the base during the Start of your turn. Common sense says it is like a light switch (Off to On) and more similar to Weed Eater (Has -2 power on the turn you play it). The only argument I can give is that the card is worded "reduce the power of the base" (similar to how upgrade just flat out says +2 power) as oppose to "The base has 0 breakpoint at the start of your turn" like how Armor Stego is worded.


Quote:
Quote:
Choking Vines:
Play on a minion. Ongoing: At the start of your turn, destroy this minion.

This ability is a one-shot effect that is Ongoing, not because its effect is always active, but because it happens at a time later than when it is played -- just like Overgrowth.


Unfortunately this is wrong. Choking Vines is not a one-shot event as it will Destroy or more specifically attempt to Destroy the minion it's played on at the start of every one of your turns. For most minions this does mean that it will be like a One-Shot event however there are exceptions most noteworthy with
Buccaneer: Special: If this minion would be Destroyed move it to a different base instead.
When a minion moves attached cards do too so if you played Choking Vines on a Buccaneer he would get to move at the start of every one of your turns while it was played on him

Quote:
And we can compare Overgrowth with:

Quote:
Rampage:
Reduce the breakpoint of a base by the power of one of your minions on that base until the end of the turn.

First, note that Rampage's effect lasts after it is played and discarded, so we shouldn't think that an Ongoing action's effect always stops once it is gone. Second, note that Rampage says when its effect ends, but Overgrowth does not, implying its effect is permanent -- which is not long since the base will be scored that turn.


Unfortunately this comparison cannot be made since Overgrown is an Ongoing ability while Rampage is a (No Prefix Type B). They are doing similar things but the rules that apply to Rampage when played aren't the same ones that apply to when Overgrown activates a turn later.

Quote:

I can see how people can interpret it the other way, so this is another good FAQ entry.

I couldn't agree with you more. We've been getting A LOT of those lately


Easily the most problematic Ongoing card in this entire game is the Ninja Infiltrate

Infiltrate
Action
Play on a base. Destroy an action that has been played here.
Ongoing : You may ignore this base's ability until the start of your next turn.


It's Ongoing ability has an "expiration date" but unlike every other card that expires at the end of the turn it does not Destroy itself (Zombie Overrun, Plants Entangled). As such by the rules of the game the card will sit on the base not doing anything after 1 turn which has caused a lot of confusion. Personally I think the Ongoing ability is weak enough that it should be a Talent (activate able every turn) since nearly every base has a positive effect on the user so you rarely want to ignore a base's ability.
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Bryan Stout
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Nice analysis, allstar. If I may add some terms, type A is discrete, while type B is continuous. In Smash Up, discrete abilities happen at a single time but tend to make a permanent change, while continuous abilities are in force over an extended period of time but usually have an end-condition specified.

You make a good point about Choking Vines: it isn't necessarily one-shot, since the minion may be protected from destruction, so it may try to happen each one of your turns. But it is a discrete ability.

To rephrase one of my points: most Ongoing cards are Ongoing because their ability is continuous, but some of them are Ongoing because their ability is discrete, but delayed to a specific time or circumstance. Some of them are a combination, having both a continuous part and a discrete part (such as "destroy at the start of your turn").

The gist of this thread is: many posting here think Overgrowth has a continuous ability, so its effect vanishes when the card is gone. I (and perhaps some others) think Overgrowth has a discrete ability, whose effect lasts even if the card is destroyed. The correct interpretation will have to be clarified by the Powers That Be.
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