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Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Why I'm starting to think KS exclusive content is neccessary rss

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Phil Christiansen
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I've always felt it really sucks when game creators on kickstarter decide to release a bunch of game changing content exclusively for backers of the game. What about those of us who missed the project or just didn't have the money when it was going on? As such I had always avoided kickstarter on principle. I figured if I don't know what I'm missing then I won't care right?

But recently I've become a backer of two very different KS projects that have lead to a change in thinking for me.

The first is Belfort: The Expansion Expansion

And the second is Galaxy Defenders - Co-op Sci-Fi Miniature Board Game

I ended up backing Belfort precisely because they weren't doing any of that much hated exclusive/game changing content for they're KS project. And with a pledge level that gets me the base game and the expansion for a good price, whats not to like? Then I found Galaxy Defenders. I love the concept, sounds like a cross between Gears of War and Descent. Pure awesome.

So after watching to two campaigns for a while I noticed some things. Belfort did very well initially and then stalled pretty much completely, whereas GD has been growing pretty steadily. Why is that? At first I thought it was just the fact that mini games tend to do very well on KS.

But I kept dwelling on the matter, and I noticed some things. Belfort actually has, at the time of writing this, over 100 more backers than GD does. Yet it has around 1/4 the amount pledged. I personally pledged about the same to each, $65 to Belfort and $75 to GD, but most people did not. Belfort has the vast majority of it's pledges at the $20 level, the minimum to get the expansion, and a handful at my level and others. GD has the majority in the $105+ range.

Again, mini game, more expensive blah blah blah. But that's not all there is to it. With Belfort even if I wanted to give them more money I really can't. What am I going to do, buy myself 5 copies of the expansion? There are no additional purchase options, or really reward levels, that I or anyone else could go to. With GD I could drop a couple hundred bucks easy if I wanted to.

And the difference isn't just in the game types, its the no game content VS a crapton of game content policies. Pledge more get more seems to lead to pledging more, its as simple as that. And the stretch goals for Belfort are honestly a joke (sorry guys). Promos I can buy here at BGG for a couple bucks? Really? Swag? What the heck does swag even mean? Is it a shirt, or gold bricks, or a Mazda Miata?

But I dunno, maybe I'm all wrong about this. What do you guys think? Anyone with more KS or industry experience want to chime in? Or anyone at all really, all opinions welcome. Just be civil please
 
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Jonathan Challis
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I think yo are right.

Lots of things that people love to hate (ultrarare cards, CCG, vs LCG or fixed deck, exclusive promos, etc) all make very sound financial sense, even with the haters.

I was involved with the release of an excellent CCG some years back, that was deliberately designed to be very easy to collect (2 boxes, and they were small 24 pack boxes) got you more than a complete set, a complete playset of everything but the rares, and plenty enough cards.

It was a player friendly decision, that killed it commercially. I think this is the same.
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I guess it's necessary since it seems Kickstarter has turned into preorder system and not a way to help good products get made..
I own two games that began on Kickstarter, Flash Point and Escape. like the way Escape promos were made available in Geekstore so that they weren't "exclusive" (tool for ebay profit).
I just hope eurodesigners won't get lured there so I don't have to start using it. yuk
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Moved from General Gaming to Kickstarter
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I believe the OP refers to 2 different factors: exclusive content and addons. They're 2 separate entities, both really crucial to successful KS campaigns (along with sensible stretch goals).

It only makes sense: once a project gets funded, people are looking for the most value for their pledge. With online retailers slashing prices, the only real incentive to retain or up one's pledge are exclusives and free addons. I mean, for most of us, getting the game a month before release is nothing (less than a month for internationals).

I guess it's a totally different picture for indy productions, but these days these are less than 5% of the KS board game projects.
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Derry Salewski
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You're comparing an expansion to a bigger game with minis . . . It's like comparing apples to little cheaper apples.

TMG has done pretty well with kickstarter so far, and not shy at all about talking about it! You can look at their blogs and stuff-- it's generally pretty interesting.

But I doubt they're trying to like, add on tons of crap. They just want to get their games made, and kickstarter lets them.

Also, since they've been sucessful in the past, you might see that initial surge because they already have a large base of people to contact when new project start. I dunno who's doing the other game, but maybe they don't have that intital direct marketing push.
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scifiantihero wrote:
I dunno who's doing the other game, but maybe they don't have that intital direct marketing push.


The same company that's responsible for War of the Ring (Second Edition), Wings of Glory, and the recently concluded Kickstarter for Sails of Glory. Galaxy Defenders funded in a ridiculously short amount of time: 8 hours.
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Phil Christiansen
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scifiantihero wrote:
You're comparing an expansion to a bigger game with minis . . . It's like comparing apples to little cheaper apples.

TMG has done pretty well with kickstarter so far, and not shy at all about talking about it! You can look at their blogs and stuff-- it's generally pretty interesting.

But I doubt they're trying to like, add on tons of crap. They just want to get their games made, and kickstarter lets them.

Also, since they've been sucessful in the past, you might see that initial surge because they already have a large base of people to contact when new project start. I dunno who's doing the other game, but maybe they don't have that intital direct marketing push.


I'm not trying to compare the games themselves simply how the KS projects are run. Belfort is my first KS backing ever, and it is because I believe in the project and TMG that I wish they were getting more money Ares Games (the GD people) run a very slick KS campaign with rewards for everything from pledge totals to FB likes to recruiting a buddy (which I still need to do heh). Is one company or game better? I have no idea, but I just wonder if you can avoid all the extra noise and still do well on KS.
 
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Shaun B
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I agree with the title of your post. I feel that when I am pledging at Kickstarter... I am lending the project owner my money to help realize their project. I expect that the money I pledge will be tied up for some amount of time before I get anything in return. Since I am lending this money... I expect some sort of return on my investment above the value of the money I pledged. Interest. This "interest" can be getting the game cheaper, earlier, or with more goodies thrown in.

If I am not getting any of those things, then I don't back the project and wait for the game to come to retail. By the time it comes to retail I will have many reviews to read and generally I will get the game much cheaper than I would have off of Kickstarter.

If the project doesn't have anything to distinguish it from the retail version... I won't bother to back the project.
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Phil Christiansen
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jomammie wrote:
I agree with the title of your post. I feel that when I am pledging at Kickstarter... I am lending the project owner my money to help realize their project. I expect that the money I pledge will be tied up for some amount of time before I get anything in return. Since I am lending this money... I expect some sort of return on my investment above the value of the money I pledged. Interest. This "interest" can be getting the game cheaper, earlier, or with more goodies thrown in.

If I am not getting any of those things, then I don't back the project and wait for the game to come to retail. By the time it comes to retail I will have many reviews to read and generally I will get the game much cheaper than I would have off of Kickstarter.

If the project doesn't have anything to distinguish it from the retail version... I won't bother to back the project.


Sure, and in a further stroke of genius Ares Games is including nearly all of the unlocked goals and such for free to backers. There are options you can add, but when your getting e-mails about all the new free things your getting now it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
 
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SomewhatDamaged wrote:
What do you guys think?


Miniature games are a very different market, so it is difficult to compare them with other boardgames. Miniature games live and breathe off of their stretch goals, add-ons and exclusives. The same cannot be said of other types of board games.

As far as Belfort is concerned - I know why I haven't backed it, and it's the same reason many others give. The stretch goals are not enticing and the price is more than I'll pay for it from an OLGS/Amazon. If it were a case that it wasn't going to get funded, I'd strongly consider backing, but I'm not interested in adding to its funds if it doesn't add anything more I find worthwhile to the game. At the same time, I think TMG is fine with this one simply meeting its funding goal - I don't get the impression that they're trying to raise huge amounts of over-funding.
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Kelanen wrote:

Lots of things that people love to hate (ultrarare cards, CCG, vs LCG or fixed deck, exclusive promos, etc) all make very sound financial sense, even with the haters.

Maybe, maybe not. I have a few promos: a few I got "by accident" -- was in the right place at the right time -- and a few I went looking for after they were released.

Do they make financial sense? It depends on how the player base of a game feels about them. If they're considered unbalancing or annoying, or if they're considered to change the "feel" of a game, they may cost the publisher potential players.

Back in the bronze age of the 1980s, the people I played with loathed Talisman because of the publisher's tendency to release ever-more-powerful expansions for it. As a result, while there some of us who played it, the group had only one copy of the game and not all of the expansions... as opposed to Cosmic Encounter, where many people brought their full (multiply-expanded) sets "just in case" there wasn't already one available. The same ought to hold true for promos, KS or not, I'd think.
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Charlie Theel
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I'm not sure what Kickstarter exclusives have to do with the OP's point. Add-ons don't have to be exclusive. Sell them later at an inflated price.
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Phil Christiansen
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charlest wrote:
I'm not sure what Kickstarter exclusives have to do with the OP's point. Add-ons don't have to be exclusive. Sell them later at an inflated price.


I mention KS exclusives because they are a powerful motivating force for many people when it comes to pledging and how much. Take a look at the pledges for GD. The level I pledged at, $75 early bird, still has 18 or so slots open. The level above it comes with 4 KS exclusive figures as the only difference and it has sold out 3 levels of early bird pricing. Now I'm not saying Belfort needs exclusives, but maybe give me an add-on option to buy extra tokens or something? It is probably true that they aren't looking to hugely overfund this one as they didn't really provide any motivation for people.

GD on the other hand has some very slick management behind it's project. Tons of freebies given out because of stretch goals, and things like the extra stuff for recruiting someone, and some purchaseable exclusives. Makes me really want to recruit someone

But yeah, I freely acknowledge I am no expert on all of this. Just some of my observations so far.
 
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Charlie Theel
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Yes, but you have no data point on people pledging for that higher level if those 4 extra figures could be purchased retail at a later date for a higher price.

Myth/Zombicide/Sedition Wars would all have done pretty well even if the exclusives were gone or reduced due to all of the extra content thrown in as stretch rewards. Would they have done as well? Probably not but I'm not 100% positive that the extra money received is worth the negativity and anger generated later.

I know personally that if I miss an exclusive reward that is very important and can buy the game later retail without the exclusive reward, I am likely to pass on the game. They lose my money and any money I'd throw at them for expansions down the line.
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KS exclusive content is necessary for what? You don't state it anywhere, but I feel you're implying that exclusive content is necessary for a successful Kickstarter. That seems founded on the assumption that a Kickstarter that has achieved 150% funding with more than 48 hours remaining is a failure.

If I understand these points correctly, I reject your premise outright. A Kickstarter is successful if it meets the funding goals set by the creator. Yes, purchase add-ons are an effective way to drive funding for a kickstarter project, but at the end of the day a project doesn't have to usurp a top ten entry to bring a product to market. If a company can generate the backing they need for their product without a lot of aditional effort and production costs to bribe backers for support, what's wrong with that?
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Phil Christiansen
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charlest wrote:
Yes, but you have no data point on people pledging for that higher level if those 4 extra figures could be purchased retail at a later date for a higher price.

Myth/Zombicide/Sedition Wars would all have done pretty well even if the exclusives were gone or reduced due to all of the extra content thrown in as stretch rewards. Would they have done as well? Probably not but I'm not 100% positive that the extra money received is worth the negativity and anger generated later.

I know personally that if I miss an exclusive reward that is very important and can buy the game later retail without the exclusive reward, I am likely to pass on the game. They lose my money and any money I'd throw at them for expansions down the line.


Hmm, your right I have no data on that. Have you seen a campaign that did that successfully? I'd love to hear about it.

pseudotheist wrote:
KS exclusive content is necessary for what? You don't state it anywhere, but I feel you're implying that exclusive content is necessary for a successful Kickstarter. That seems founded on the assumption that a Kickstarter that has achieved 150% funding with more than 48 hours remaining is a failure.

If I understand these points correctly, I reject your premise outright. A Kickstarter is successful if it meets the funding goals set by the creator. Yes, purchase add-ons are an effective way to drive funding for a kickstarter project, but at the end of the day a project doesn't have to usurp a top ten entry to bring a product to market. If a company can generate the backing they need for their product without a lot of aditional effort and production costs to bribe backers for support, what's wrong with that?


You make some excellent points, thank you. However, it seems to me almost like the people behind Belfort are not too happy with 150%. Take this excerpt from the most recent project update:

"Stalled...

After some great initial days of backing, the campaign for Belfort has stalled out some, ok maybe a lot. As you can see in this Kicktraq pledges and backers by day chart, the prior 7 days (4-25 through 5-1) were barely more new backers than the second day.

Maybe stalled isn't the right word for it. Maybe i should say "project funding has dropped off of a cliff" instead."

Doesn't sound very happy with 150% does he? But your right, funded is funded. Maybe I should have said for a hugely successful campaign? I dunno.

EDIT: Also, I don't think anything is wrong with that. I'm kinda hoping I can be proven wrong about it being needed
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SomewhatDamaged wrote:
charlest wrote:
Yes, but you have no data point on people pledging for that higher level if those 4 extra figures could be purchased retail at a later date for a higher price.

Myth/Zombicide/Sedition Wars would all have done pretty well even if the exclusives were gone or reduced due to all of the extra content thrown in as stretch rewards. Would they have done as well? Probably not but I'm not 100% positive that the extra money received is worth the negativity and anger generated later.

I know personally that if I miss an exclusive reward that is very important and can buy the game later retail without the exclusive reward, I am likely to pass on the game. They lose my money and any money I'd throw at them for expansions down the line.


Hmm, your right I have no data on that. Have you seen a campaign that did that successfully? I'd love to hear about it.



I'd be curious to see the number of people that bought into Zombicide Season 1 and didn't buy add-ons, or Sedition Wars, or Myth. I bought into Sedition Wars and Myth and didn't add anything. I still received tremendous value.
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Phil Christiansen
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I feel the same way about GD, though I am really tempted by those optional aliens that look like Alien and Predator guys
 
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You seem to be making assumptions on only two data points, which would be bad enough, but you also have chosen two disparate game types.
Maybe if they were both miniature based, or both expansions.
An expansion is mostly limited to people who already on the game. There are simply too many variables to lock in on one in this instance. I think you sort of started with a conclusion in mind and then found the data to back it up. (Also lack of data doesn't prove a point either way, it is just a lack of data).
I am not saying you are right or wrong, only that your methodology is flawed and without more data there is no way to form a conclusion one way or another.
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Phil Christiansen
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faustulus wrote:
You seem to be making assumptions on only two data points, which would be bad enough, but you also have chosen two disparate game types.
Maybe if they were both miniature based, or both expansions.
An expansion is mostly limited to people who already on the game. There are simply too many variables to lock in on one in this instance. I think you sort of started with a conclusion in mind and then found the data to back it up. (Also lack of data doesn't prove a point either way, it is just a lack of data).
I am not saying you are right or wrong, only that your methodology is flawed and without more data there is no way to form a conclusion one way or another.


Uhm, I'm going to assume you missed the repeated instances in which I profess to be no expert and freely admit I could be wrong. And also the part where I said I started out with the assumption that exclusive stuff sucks and is unnecessary. Hence my asking for the opinion of people more experienced than myself

Its just something I found myself pondering, and so I asked for opinions. Which, by the way, you did not provide. What do you think?

EDIT: I don't own Belfort, I pledged at the level that comes with the base game.
 
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charlest wrote:
I'm not sure what Kickstarter exclusives have to do with the OP's point. Add-ons don't have to be exclusive. Sell them later at an inflated price.


This right here. Don't make them exclusive, which just annoys people late to the party. Just provide the bonus items for free/discounted on KS. The backers still get a deal and others can still get the content, they just have to pay a little more for it.
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SomewhatDamaged wrote:
faustulus wrote:
You seem to be making assumptions on only two data points, which would be bad enough, but you also have chosen two disparate game types.
Maybe if they were both miniature based, or both expansions.
An expansion is mostly limited to people who already on the game. There are simply too many variables to lock in on one in this instance. I think you sort of started with a conclusion in mind and then found the data to back it up. (Also lack of data doesn't prove a point either way, it is just a lack of data).
I am not saying you are right or wrong, only that your methodology is flawed and without more data there is no way to form a conclusion one way or another.


Uhm, I'm going to assume you missed the repeated instances in which I profess to be no expert and freely admit I could be wrong. And also the part where I said I started out with the assumption that exclusive stuff sucks and is unnecessary. Hence my asking for the opinion of people more experienced than myself :D

Its just something I found myself pondering, and so I asked for opinions. Which, by the way, you did not provide. What do you think?

EDIT: I don't own Belfort, I pledged at the level that comes with the base game.

I did supply my opinion, "without more data there is no way to form a conclusion either way."
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Kickstarter backers often spend more money on their copies of a particular game versus buying the game at retail after it is released. I think some backers simply want a reason to justify spending more money early and waiting for the inevitable delays involved with Kickstarter games. Exclusive content answers the question "why should I back this project now instead of waiting?"

Having said that, I do dislike the idea of having people miss out on exclusive content simply because they didn't participate in the Kickstarter campaign.

One idea I do think is a good idea is to have Kickstarter exclusive content available during future campaigns. So for example if the Belfort project had cards available exclusively for backers, make those same cards available to future backers during their next Kickstarter campaign.

You could always give backers a discounted price for supporting a project, but most game companies seem more willing to give more content away rather than drop the price of the game.

Bottom line- Kickstarter backers should have a clear answer to the question "why should I spend more money now on a game I can potentially get later at a discount?" If there is no good answer to that question, may potential backers may opt to save their money and not assume all the risks involved in backing a game project on KS.
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Redheaded Pharmacist wrote:
Kickstarter backers often spend more money on their copies of a particular game versus buying the game at retail after it is released. I think some backers simply want a reason to justify spending more money early and waiting for the inevitable delays involved with Kickstarter games. Exclusive content answers the question "why should I back this project now instead of waiting?"

Having said that, I do dislike the idea of having people miss out on exclusive content simply because they didn't participate in the Kickstarter campaign.

One idea I do think is a good idea is to have Kickstarter exclusive content available during future campaigns. So for example if the Belfort project had cards available exclusively for backers, make those same cards available to future backers during their next Kickstarter campaign.

You could always give backers a discounted price for supporting a project, but most game companies seem more willing to give more content away rather than drop the price of the game.

Bottom line- Kickstarter backers should have a clear answer to the question "why should I spend more money now on a game I can potentially get later at a discount?" If there is no good answer to that question, may potential backers may opt to save their money and not assume all the risks involved in backing a game project on KS.


You, sir, are a genius. Back something by our company and you can buy KS rewards our company has done before. Would that work do you guys think?
 
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