Fred Hartig
Germany
Hamburg
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
James,

hope you don't mind a few more questions.
Most are of the "just to make sure..." category.

A.Spotting
1. Can a unit, for spotting purposes only, spot through its flank, or only into its firing arc?

B.Group Move
The rules state that units in a group move must be continous adjacent/in same hex to initiate a group move.

1.Lets say, 3 units(X,Y andZ) are adjacent:

XYZ

The center unit(Y)has a "Stunned" or a "Pinned" Hit Marker on it and can not move.
But, can I initiate a group move with this 3 units, IF ONLY THE TWO FLANK units move, while the hit center unit stays in place?
I.e. the center unit would only be used as a "link" between the two other units. Is this allowed?

2. I guess units in enemy occupied hexes CAN be part of a group move, right?

C.Steep Terrain
1. Both, foot and vehicle units can move down acroos a steep terrain hexside, without any additional +APs, right?

2. Only foot units can move up a across a steep terrain hexside, for +2 APs, right?

3. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex up across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?

4. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex down across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types still get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?


D.Action Cards
1. Rule 2.2(2nd ed.)states, that "A unit is spent after it has been activated and has spent all of its 7 APs."
So the rule says, when the AP marker hits the zero space, the unit is spent(flipped).
If this is so, then Card # 7 (+1d6 APs) can only be played on a unit with at least 1 AP remaining, right?

2. Rule 8.5 states for the "Group Action" symbol, that "the card may be played as part of a group action, if paid for with CAPs."
Rule 8.0 states, that cards paid for with AP only, can only be used on this active unit.
Now consider the following situation.
Two foot units share an activation. There are 5 APs in the shared AP pool and there are no CAPs available.
Both units have hit markers on them.
Now, on my turn I would like to play card #3 "Follow me" on both units as a group.
BUT, if I pay with AP's, according to rule 8.5, I can't group rally both units.
But in this case, I have a shared activation...
So, can I in this situation rally only one of the units with this card for 2 APs? I guess so.

E.Vehicles
1. The towing procedure uses the same rules as the Loading/Transporting rules in section 17.0, right?

2.The Towing rules under 14.5 state, that a towing tracked vehicle can not use its bonus moves when it tows another tracked vehicle.
But can it use its bonus moves when it tows a wheeled vehicle?

3. What about a wheeled vehicle? Can a wheeled vehicle use its bonus moves when towing another wheeled vehicle?

4. A wheeled or tracked vehicle can use all of its bonus moves when it transports a gun, right?

5. A friendly vehicle gives a foot unit in the same hex a +1 DM.
But it does not give the foot unit a +1 DRM when rolling for a Rally, right?

6.A friendly vehicle gives a foot unit in the same hex a +1 DM.
But I guess this does not apply in close combat(CC), right?

F.Fortifications
1. I can build "Hasty Defenses" in buildings, and they add +1 DM in addition to the terrain modifier, for a total of +3 DM in this case, correct?

2. All Fortifications always add their modifier to the terrain modifier, right?

Thanks again and greetings from Hamburg!

Fred

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
badge
ACT AS IF THE TRUTH IS REAL
Avatar
mb
Fred22 wrote:
B.Group Move
The rules state that units in a group move must be continous adjacent/in same hex to initiate a group move.

1.Lets say, 3 units(X,Y andZ) are adjacent:

XYZ

The center unit(Y)has a "Stunned" or a "Pinned" Hit Marker on it and can not move.
But, can I initiate a group move with this 3 units, IF ONLY THE TWO FLANK units move, while the hit center unit stays in place?
I.e. the center unit would only be used as a "link" between the two other units. Is this allowed?

2. I guess units in enemy occupied hexes CAN be part of a group move, right?
Good question. I think that in order to be a member of a group for purposes of any action, a unit must be capable of performing the action at the instant it is performed, so that since Y can't move, (and since a moving group must consist of contiguous units) you'd have to choose X or Z.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fred22 wrote:
James,

hope you don't mind a few more questions.
Most are of the "just to make sure..." category.

A.Spotting
1. Can a unit, for spotting purposes only, spot through its flank, or only into its firing arc?

It could spot through its flank.

Quote:

B.Group Move
The rules state that units in a group move must be continous adjacent/in same hex to initiate a group move.

1.Lets say, 3 units(X,Y andZ) are adjacent:

XYZ

The center unit(Y)has a "Stunned" or a "Pinned" Hit Marker on it and can not move.
But, can I initiate a group move with this 3 units, IF ONLY THE TWO FLANK units move, while the hit center unit stays in place?
I.e. the center unit would only be used as a "link" between the two other units. Is this allowed?


As Alderan states, the unit must be capable of the action to be part of it. If the unit wasn't pinned, you could keep the unit in place and have the other two moved, but the unit in the middle is essentially "moving 0 hexes", or doing a 360 degree pivot, or whatever you want to call it. :-) But if it's pinned, then no, the "link" is broken at that point.

Quote:


2. I guess units in enemy occupied hexes CAN be part of a group move, right?


Yes. They would still have to obey the rules, however (i.e., if the enemy just moved into the hex, you can't move to where the enemy just moved from.)

Quote:


C.Steep Terrain
1. Both, foot and vehicle units can move down acroos a steep terrain hexside, without any additional +APs, right?


Correct

Quote:

2. Only foot units can move up a across a steep terrain hexside, for +2 APs, right?

Correct.

Quote:

3. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex up across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?

Correct.

Quote:

4. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex down across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types still get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?

Correct. Remember, there are still other modifiers that play into it with the height differential though.

Quote:

D.Action Cards
1. Rule 2.2(2nd ed.)states, that "A unit is spent after it has been activated and has spent all of its 7 APs."
So the rule says, when the AP marker hits the zero space, the unit is spent(flipped).
If this is so, then Card # 7 (+1d6 APs) can only be played on a unit with at least 1 AP remaining, right?

Correct.

Quote:

2. Rule 8.5 states for the "Group Action" symbol, that "the card may be played as part of a group action, if paid for with CAPs."
Rule 8.0 states, that cards paid for with AP only, can only be used on this active unit.
Now consider the following situation.
Two foot units share an activation. There are 5 APs in the shared AP pool and there are no CAPs available.
Both units have hit markers on them.
Now, on my turn I would like to play card #3 "Follow me" on both units as a group.
BUT, if I pay with AP's, according to rule 8.5, I can't group rally both units.
But in this case, I have a shared activation...
So, can I in this situation rally only one of the units with this card for 2 APs? I guess so.

The original intent was that you could rally both units - I'm not 100% sure if with the new icons in the 2nd edition rules, this has changed. Let me ask Uwe to confirm this one.

Quote:

E.Vehicles
1. The towing procedure uses the same rules as the Loading/Transporting rules in section 17.0, right?

Yes.

Quote:

2.The Towing rules under 14.5 state, that a towing tracked vehicle can not use its bonus moves when it tows another tracked vehicle.
But can it use its bonus moves when it tows a wheeled vehicle?

Yes.

Quote:

3. What about a wheeled vehicle? Can a wheeled vehicle use its bonus moves when towing another wheeled vehicle?

Yes.

Quote:

4. A wheeled or tracked vehicle can use all of its bonus moves when it transports a gun, right?

Yes.

Quote:

5. A friendly vehicle gives a foot unit in the same hex a +1 DM.
But it does not give the foot unit a +1 DRM when rolling for a Rally, right?
It does give +1 for Rally - the summary sheet lists it as cover terrain.

Quote:

6.A friendly vehicle gives a foot unit in the same hex a +1 DM.
But I guess this does not apply in close combat(CC), right?

Yes, it applies in close combat, just like any other terrain.

Quote:

F.Fortifications
1. I can build "Hasty Defenses" in buildings, and they add +1 DM in addition to the terrain modifier, for a total of +3 DM in this case, correct?
Correct.

Quote:

2. All Fortifications always add their modifier to the terrain modifier, right?

As far as I know, that's correct.
Quote:

Thanks again and greetings from Hamburg!

Fred


No problem!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I heard back from Uwe about paying for group card actions.

The answer is Yes, you need to pay CAPs to do them as group actions.

However, the original idea was that you could pay APs to do them, but it was decided when writing the rules that this would be simpler to describe in the rulebook. So, if you want to allow players to pay APs to do group card actions - go right ahead.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernard Bryant
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Aldaron wrote:

Good question. I think that in order to be a member of a group for purposes of any action, a unit must be capable of performing the action at the instant it is performed, so that since Y can't move, (and since a moving group must consist of contiguous units) you'd have to choose X or Z

I have to disagree with You wholeheartedly.

The Rules as Written state "Not all units included in a group move action must move." (AtBv2, pg 09).

Nowhere else can I find the disclaimer that units in group OR shared activation can be affected adversely by a member unit except in terms of group fire.

From a tactical (or technical) POV, this is not a moot point. Just because the "unit as a whole" may be paralyzed to movement, does NOT mean it cannot convey the "order" to move out...it just can't perform that action (but pays the cost nonetheless).

So as a part of a group/shared activation, I would allow such a movement if only because it makes real sense.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
badge
ACT AS IF THE TRUTH IS REAL
Avatar
mb
ArdWulf23 wrote:
Aldaron wrote:

Good question. I think that in order to be a member of a group for purposes of any action, a unit must be capable of performing the action at the instant it is performed, so that since Y can't move, (and since a moving group must consist of contiguous units) you'd have to choose X or Z

I have to disagree with You wholeheartedly.

The Rules as Written state "Not all units included in a group move action must move." (AtBv2, pg 09).
That's not the same as being capable of moving. See James's post above.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernard Bryant
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Felkor wrote:
Fred22 wrote:
James,
3. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex up across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?

Correct.

Quote:

4. When vehiceles or foot units fire into an adjacent hex down across a steep terrain hexside, both unit types still get the +3 FP modifier for short range, correct?

Correct. Remember, there are still other modifiers that play into it with the height differential though.

This exchange actually brings up a couple of interesting dilemmas!
Caveat: I understand that the AtBv2 is the latest and greatest plan and should therefore be considered Bible.

BUT...when we consider the terrain feature known as "Large Balkas" introduced in SoS, the ability for tanks to direct fire immediately below was prohibited by Designer's Note:because the barrels could not be depressed enough.

And I do agree.

Therefore, I should argue the same applies to cliffs (or steep terrain whereby the elevation change between adjacent hexes is greater than or equal to 2 levels).

I'd even venture further to say that no ordinance (ie: ATG's) should be allowed to depress their sights so sharply.

My second point is of course the converse and would argue that NO tank, nor ATG should be allowed to fire upwards either...but then we could devolve into an ASL-like debate over muzzle elevations etc and that's not where we should go.

Perhaps upward firing should cost more and thereby somewhat alleviate the attacker from its height disadvantage..not sure just throwing out there.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You could certainly house rule it. The idea of "steep terrain" isn't that it's cliffs - I mean, vehicles are allowed to drive down it, so clearly they can exist on the terrain without tumbling to their doom. That said, simplicity is a principle behind CoH, and if, in your own games, you want to add complexity for added realism, by all means, go for it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ArdWulf23 wrote:


The Rules as Written state "Not all units included in a group move action must move." (AtBv2, pg 09).

That rule is in there to address the situation where you have a group of units that you want to rearrange, where perhaps you don't want to move all of them, but as a group they are still moving, and every unit is taking a "move action". It was not intended to give a player license to take a move action with a unit that is incapable of taking move actions, though.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernard Bryant
United States
New York
flag msg tools
I agree James...keeping things simple and thus clean is the hallmark of this rules system.

And You are absolutely correct about steep terrain versus cliffs...my mind read something different than what my eyes read.

My point should have been to compare strictly cliffs and large balkas....for the purposes of continuity between the game-sets.

Thanks for the redirect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernard Bryant
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Aldaron wrote:
ArdWulf23 wrote:
Aldaron wrote:

Good question. I think that in order to be a member of a group for purposes of any action, a unit must be capable of performing the action at the instant it is performed, so that since Y can't move, (and since a moving group must consist of contiguous units) you'd have to choose X or Z

I have to disagree with You wholeheartedly.

The Rules as Written state "Not all units included in a group move action must move." (AtBv2, pg 09).
That's not the same as being capable of moving. See James's post above.

I don't want to beat this horse into glue, but I don't see where that is written or implied in the rulebooks.

The only reference to limiting capability is in the group fire rules...eg: no zero AF's allowed in the fire line, range, etc.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
badge
ACT AS IF THE TRUTH IS REAL
Avatar
mb
ArdWulf23 wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
ArdWulf23 wrote:
Aldaron wrote:

Good question. I think that in order to be a member of a group for purposes of any action, a unit must be capable of performing the action at the instant it is performed, so that since Y can't move, (and since a moving group must consist of contiguous units) you'd have to choose X or Z
I have to disagree with You wholeheartedly.

The Rules as Written state "Not all units included in a group move action must move." (AtBv2, pg 09).
That's not the same as being capable of moving. See James's post above.
I don't want to beat this horse into glue, but I don't see where that is written or implied in the rulebooks.

The only reference to limiting capability is in the group fire rules...eg: no zero AF's allowed in the fire line, range, etc.
The interpretation follows directly from the way the rules are stated: e.g., a pinned unit "may not move", so it can't participate in a move action. But, as I said, my recollection is not clear. James's is likely to be much more uptodate, and he agrees:

wrote:
As Aldaron states, the unit must be capable of the action to be part of it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bernard Bryant
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Never mind guys...I AM a blind idiot and apologize for your time.

Clearly written at the bottom of the left column, on page 15:
"Hit units may participate in a group move, if able to move."

If they cannot move, they cannot participate, therefore they cannot extend the line of an advance.

Pardon me now, as I have a latrine to dig.
5 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's ok - neither Aldaron or me saw it either. I knew the intention as it had been brought up before a long time ago, but wasn't sure where it was so clearly written. So good find!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maxime
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Felkor wrote:
Fred22 wrote:
James,

hope you don't mind a few more questions.
Most are of the "just to make sure..." category.

A.Spotting
1. Can a unit, for spotting purposes only, spot through its flank, or only into its firing arc?

It could spot through its flank.

I understand this concern Off-Board Artillery spotters. (Even more as ObA spotter can be hidden, they don't have facing)

In general, does LOS equal Arc of Fire ?

I wonder if unit can "spot" (wrong term ?) hidden unit in open terrain outside their arc of fire within 2 HEXes

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A unit can only fire within its Arc of Fire, but LOS ignores the Arc of Fire. So things like spotting, or if the firefight calls for a unit to be within LOS of a certain hex, then facing doesn't matter.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maxime
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Felkor wrote:
A unit can only fire within its Arc of Fire, but LOS ignores the Arc of Fire. So things like spotting, or if the firefight calls for a unit to be within LOS of a certain hex, then facing doesn't matter.

Thank you James ! Now I also understand Figure 25, page 11 of AtB Rules version 2.2 showing mortar spotting HEXes out of the arc of fire.
Figure 34, page 18 of the Reference Rules showed a smaller picture without flank Hexes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Palmer
Canada
Ayr
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just remember, the mortar still cannot fire outside its arc of fire though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maxime
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Felkor wrote:
Just remember, the mortar still cannot fire outside its arc of fire though.
All right, thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maxime
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:

C.Steep Terrain
1. Both, foot and vehicle units can move down acroos a steep terrain hexside, without any additional +APs, right?
Quote:

Correct

I totally miss that point of rules. I believed Steep Terrain ban vehicule moves even downhill. The picture of Steep Terrain on the board really looks unconfortable for vehicules, especially for wheeled vehicules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls