GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
7,610 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
22 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

Guilds of Cadwallon» Forums » Variants

Subject: Brainstorming Guild Backer rules rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Thomas Diener
United States
Conroe
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Having played a dozen or so games in the last week since my Kick-Starter copy arrived,
(varying from 2 player on a 3x3 board to 4 player on a 5x5 board and all combinations between, all using the extra kickstarter guilds))
I can only think of a single instance where I might use the Guild Backers as written:
(I might use them w/ 2 players using only 4 guilds.... and I might have to take out the personality cards to do That!)

I've been trying to work up variant rules that
would elevate the Guild Backers to more desirable and (at least occasional, if not) regular use.
I want to make them more interesting than the current rules,
but I don't want them to break the game, either!

This is obviously still in the brain-storming phase,
and I would really like some other ideas to flesh out Guild Backers a bit.
I'm especially looking for ideas to keep the addition of backers from diluting the deck from points-giving Guilds too much
(This is my Main Objection to the current rule as written: Action Cards, Militia, and personalities already take up a -lot- of room!)

I also think it'd be interesting to to increase the Guild Backer/Personality interaction potential....

Inspired by the Tech scoring additions in the expansions to 7 Wonders here are a couple of thoughts I've been playing with:
I'm interested in trying them both singly and in combination:

(I'm counting the current rules as written as three seperate parts of "rules option 0")
0/a} adds five points if all four guild cards are held
0/b} worth one guild point
0/c) zero support value

1) Guild Specific personalities:
Guild Backers now use the Personality 'wild card' rule, but only for their specific guild.

2) Adds +1 Guild point for each Guild Card collected
Similair to (and replacing) the five point bonus rule ("0/a") as written for backers, but with more granulation:
Backers would instead give +1 for one Guild Card, +2 for two, etc
(either with or without the backer counting itself: gives a potential total of +4 if Backer doesn't count itself, and back to a total +5 if it does))

3) Guild Backers give 3 support to control during the control phase
*But _ONLY_ a District Card of their own guild (they give 0 support to any other district) (replaces current rule "0/c")
(I like this idea a lot, as it makes action cards even more tactical)

4) Guild Backers increase the Max Number of Guild Cards from 4 to 5 during endgame scoring
Best if used w/ rule variant 1) {above I think...
(This one is potentially overpowered, and would only really make sense for Larger size, fewer player Games {2-3 players playing on a 4x4 or 5x5 using all 8 guilds)

5) Inter-Guild City Council
Guild Backers become, in effect: a New Guild ( 'The Council'), who are scored by adding the square of the number of guild backers captured by a player
(representing your influence in the Council) Thus: for two guild backers a score would be (2x2=4), for four backers one would score (4x4=16) guild points.
A maximum of four guild backers is allowed per set (unless combined with option 4 above) I think this one would work well with the original rules (rule "0") as written.

{Potential sub-rule to ameliorate any overpowered Rule from {above}:
A) Can only be captured by Support from their own guild!

Again:
I'm throwing out these ideas to be "mix and matched" with each other (and the original 3 sub-rules as written)
so some sort of consensus can emerge of a good, solid, playable, but not overpowered combination.
It's certainly possible that different rules will work better with different numbers of players and different size boards.


I really want to play with Guild Backers, but IMHO the current rules as written just dilute the Guild deck too much for too little game effect....



2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben O'Steen
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great ideas here so thanks for sharing!

I particularly like the capture/support rule tweaks - that guild backers can only support their guild tiles or can only be captured by own guild. I'll have to give it a play with these to find out how they feel.

For rule suggestion #4, about increasing max guild number, this can be tamed by not allowing any personalities to be used, if the guild backer is. Players then should look out if anyone captures a guild backer and make sure that player doesn't get any more of the right guild tiles!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Diener
United States
Conroe
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
benosteen wrote:
Great ideas here so thanks for sharing!
For rule suggestion #4, about increasing max guild number, this can be tamed by not allowing any personalities to be used, if the guild backer is. Players then should look out if anyone captures a guild backer and make sure that player doesn't get any more of the right guild tiles!


Good Call!

I also thought of an addition to variant #5:

5) Inter-Guild City Council
Guild Backers become, in effect: a New Guild ( 'The Council'), who are scored by adding the square of the number of guild backers and/or Personalities captured by a player
(This represents a particulair allied faction's influence in the City Council) Thus: for two guild backers and/or Personalities score would be (2x2=4), for four backers and/or one would score (4x4=16) guild points.
A maximum of four guild backers and/or personalities is allowed per set (unless combined with option 4 above)

This idea makes me all kinds of Happy,
as it meets my goal of having some kind of interaction between Guild Backers and Personalities.

This could work at least two ways:
With capture tweaks: in addition to current scoring
(ie Personalities could still be assigned to a guild as normal)

Without capture tweeks: instead of regular scoring
(ie Personalities could be assigned to a Guild as normal,
or to the Guild Council: but not to Both)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben O'Steen
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With the backers, there are a decent number of personalities in the deck and so, the guild council would be something to shoot for. Might make for a good contract card too.

Having a guild backer in your pocket (thematically) should get you a decent sway over a given guild. I quite like the idea that it should affect guild scoring for everyone, not just the person with the backer - eg multiplier bonuses become 1x, 1x, 2x, 3x for 1,2,3 and 4 cards respectively (rather than 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x) if another player has the backer?

Or maybe a majority-type bonus? If you have more of the guild cards than the player with that guild backer then you are unaffected, but if you have equal or fewer, then you lose a multiplier?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Mason
Canada
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quick thoughts:
I like the simplicity of the rules and any variant I'd use would emphasize that. The easier to explain and the fewer caveats to the Guild Backer's use, the better.

With Backers having no support value, they don't help you to obtain other cards (or alternately do help you to not obtain militia). So placing an agent next to backers and personalities, you are either a) explicitly trying to get that card, b) explicitly trying NOT to get a militia, or c) are merely forced with no other option. The key is to emphasize a) so that it becomes an attractive option for all players. Personalities do this by increasing your multiplier and are valuable to each player (somewhat) equally.

Where Backers and Personalities differ, now, is a) Personalities provide no value on their own (and are ONLY a multiplier) and b) Backers are guild locked/associated.

So, implement both 2 and 5:

2)
The card has 1 coin printed on it. Rule would be "Worth 1 point for each other guild card of same type you have". So max 5 points if you collect all 5 cards of same Guild with smaller rewards for partial completion.

5)
I really like this one too, and your add-on of including personalities in that count. It complements 2) so that if a particular guild backer for a set you aren't collecting comes up, you can still snap it to collect as many backers as possible.


Balance might need to be tweaked though. Player A) has all 4 guild cards so the backer of that type is worth 5 points to him. Player B) has 3 other guild backers so the 4th backer is worth { 16 (4x4 potential) - 9 (3x3 already) } for 7 points (oh and plus 1 for the 1 coin printed on it). Is this equitable?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester Hendrix
United States
Marysville
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BACKER CARDS - ANALYSIS

While I find the Optional Rules presented above cool, it occurred to me to delve a bit deeper into the game itself to find what makes them appear so useless. I'm now not quite so sure they are. After laying out all of the cards, it became clear that there are a couple of surprising things about the Backer cards.

The second paragraph on the Guild Backers explanation card gives the impression that the Backer cards should be counted and grouped with the other Guild cards that share the specific Guild Crest. They should not. Guild Backer cards should be placed in a group by themselves and considered bonus cards that deliver a 5-point bonus for their specific Guild should you be lucky enough to get all 4 regular Guild cards… not 2 or 3 Guild cards plus enough Personalities to make a set of 4 in order to get the 5-point bonus from the Backer [in other words, your group of 4 Guild cards must have no Personalities in it to qualify]. Other than that, each Backer card only supplies 1 extra point each to your grand total after all your other points have been added up.

If this was all they did, I'd be all over the above suggestions [they'd need serious playtesting to see which ones enhance and which ones break the game]. Some of the not-so-obvious things that the Backer cards do, is to interact with most of the CONTRACTS, a few of the CONDITION cards, and offer opportunities with a number of the ACTION cards.

CONDITION CARDS:

NEW DEALS– ‘At the end of the game, instead of matching cards by Guild, you must make groups that include only one card per Guild. Multiply the value of those cards by the number of cards in that group.’ This implies that instead of making regular groups of 4 with regular Guild cards, the phrase ‘one card per Guild’ suggests that Backer cards could be used to fulfill this requirement. If this CONDITION card is out, Backer cards become quite valuable.

BROKEN ALLIANCES– ‘At the end of the game, each player can only score points for 2 Guilds total. Any other Guild cards are worth 0 Guild points.’ When this CONDITION card is out, the Backer cards [even though they are only worth 1 bonus point] can provide that 1 or 2 extra points that might make the difference.

MARKET COLLAPSE– ‘At the end of the game, you do not multiply the value of any Guild cards or Militia cards.’ Since there is no multiplying at all, every point makes a difference, and Backers provide extra bonus points here and there. But, should you be lucky enough to get all 4 regular Guild cards AND the Backer, the 5 point bonus will be HUGE.


CONTRACT CARDS:
A- ‘If you have 3 or more Guild of xx cards, score 5 Guild points.’ There are 8 of these CONTRACT cards [one for each Guild]. Getting the Backer, and any 2 other Guild cards of the same Guild gets you the extra 5 point bonus just as if you had all 4 regular Guild cards. That makes each of these CONTRACTS and the matching Backer worth the extra effort to pick them up.

B- ‘For each set of 4 unique districts, score 4 Guild points. Each card can only be counted once.’ Since each of the Backers have the 5th district, this CONTRACT can be huge for bonus points at the end of the game. With the extra cards, there are a total of 4 of these CONTRACTS, which means that competition for the Backers might well become an issue.

ACTION CARDS:
1; GUILD ALLIANCE- ‘Exchange a card you have for a card in the playing area with the same support value.’ Note that Personality and Backer cards have the same support value [0].This ACTION card allows you to exchange a Backer with a Guild crest you don't need for a Personality you can use to pump up the multipliers for one of your Guilds.

2; GUILD VIOLENCE- ‘Exchange a card you have for a card in the playing area with the same district type.’ Since only Militia and other Backers use the 5th district type, this card can allow you to grab a specific Backer card that you otherwise would not be able to capture, dump a Militia you got stuck with, or give you a solid edge for fulfilling the Militia CONTRACT.

3; A LITTLE GRAFT- ‘Exchange a card you have for a card in the playing area with the same Guild crest.’ Returning a single bonus point Backer for a regular Guild card with more points on it can make a big difference.

4; NEW MARKETS- ‘Exchange 2 cards that show the same district type.’ This card can be used to either get you the Backer you want, or to drop a Militia card on an opponent who thought they were going to get a Backer. Can also be used to help you fulfill the Militia CONTRACT.

5; TARO MAGES/DUCAL DECREE/THE KING OF ASHES STIRS. All of these cards permit the exchange of cards on the playing field based on position [corners/vertical/horizontal]. Since Backers have no support value, skillful use of these ACTION cards make Backers a wonderful surprise factor.

At first, we wanted to include the Backers as part of the multiplying factors for each given Guild as it seemed the natural thing to do. However, we decided they become much too powerful and tend to skew the scoring. But once we started putting the Backers in a stack by themselves, instead of putting them with the other Guild cards that share the same crest, they then became much less confusing to use and were seen simply as the bonus cards they are.

Having gone through the entire deck - which includes all of the extra cards from the Kickstarter expansion - it becomes clear that there are many ways in which the Backers can provide extra bonuses much as the ACTION cards do. The Backers also help fulfill a number of the CONTRACT conditions making them much more valuable than just a single bonus point.

I hope this helps clear up more issues than it creates. If there’s anything I’ve gotten wrong, please let me know.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon G
United States
Goleta
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Another idea... having a guild's backer card could break ties in your favor when trying to win cards of that guild. If you want a weak varient of this, you only win ties if you own the guild backer card already. If you want a stonger variant, you win ties even if you just won the guild backer this round.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester Hendrix
United States
Marysville
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
An excellent idea! This gives the Backers a real power that exists nowhere else in the game!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.