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Rebel Raiders on the High Seas» Forums » Rules

Subject: Batteries in captured cities rss

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Marco Arnaudo
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when the Union captures a Confederate area that still contains batteries, do the batteries remain in the space? Does the Union player benefit from them in case of a later Confederate counterattack?
Thanks!
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Michael Collarin
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I would think the Confederate batteries are lost in the battle though I can't seem to find it explicitly in the rules posted online (these may not be exactly the same as the final printed rules)
 
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Marco Arnaudo
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MCOLL81 wrote:
I would think the Confederate batteries are lost in the battle though I can't seem to find it explicitly in the rules posted online (these may not be exactly the same as the final printed rules)


there isn't anything in the final printed rules either, hence my question. The rules simply state that if the union wins, the Union players places a control marker on the space, and, later, that a Union player has all the usual advantages when defending against a counterattack. Following these strictly, there's nothing that says you must remove the batteries...
 
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Tripp Ritter
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It is implied in rule 7.11 that they are destroyed by Assaults.

"Confederate Batteries and Union Control Markers never move. Batteries may be destroyed (removed from a space) as a result of Naval Combat (10) Assault (11) or Withering on the Vine lack of supply (13.11)
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Tripp Ritter
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But sadly, just implied, as I at least could not find specific wording how they are removed by assault.
 
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Michael Collarin
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Got ya. I see that one now, but still don't see the latter either
 
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Thomas Heaney
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Is it my imagination, or is there a lot left unsaid and vague in this rule set? I feel like I'm finding myself puzzled by the rules a bit more than normal.
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Fred Schachter
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Gentlemen,

I regret the confusion regarding Batteries in captured cities.

A city may solely be captured by Land Assault, Rule Section 11 covers this. There is no way for a City to be captured by Naval Combat with Batteries remaining in place.

Note rule 10.25 under Naval Combat, “At the end of a round of combat, if there are solely Confederate Battery(s) left, the attacker must either fight another round of Naval Combat or the attacker must resolve the Union Assault per 10.42.

For ease of reference, 10.42 reads: “A Union attacker who has destroyed or compelled the retreat of all the Confederate defender’s Gunboats, Ironclads and combat-involved Raiders in a Port or Fort must immediately resolve an Assault (11) against that Port or Fort.”

Each Confederate Battery provides the Rebel Player one die per Battery for resolving a Land Assault. The Rules and Play Book should explain Land Assault. A Union Amphibious Assault is resolved like a Land Assault.

From comments to date it seems patience to entirely read the rules and their associated Play Book examples is the best way to learn how to play REBEL RAIDERS ON THE HIGH SEAS.

However, I can personally attest over five decades of gaming how my friends and I, in our enthusiasm to immediately get a new game on the table and begin playing it, would have questions, or worse, play incorrectly until we realized our mistakes. In all candor, we always preferred getting the game on the table to play, for gaming hours were too sparse and exceedingly treasured, so we tolerated making mistakes until we got things right.

That’s not to excuse folks having difficulty understanding REBEL RAIDERS rules… would that they could have been composed in a manner eliminating any learning obstacles.

The answers to questions are there within the game (at least to this point) and I can only affirm my willingness to respond to every inquiry so those who have questions can get them swiftly responded to and appreciate what is, in my opinion and those of quite a few other gamers, a fine and fun product.

Heck, you paid good money for the game, Mark and I are grateful for your patronage and, above all, want you to have the kind of gaming experience the design intends… not to get hung up on rule problems.

Enjoy REBEL RAIDERS ON THE HIGH SEAS! I’ll do everything possible to make that so.
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Tripp Ritter
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Thomas, I suggest reviewing the play book and jumping into a game. My first game involved checking rules, but no more than any other wargame.
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Marco Arnaudo
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F Schachter wrote:

Note rule 10.25 under Naval Combat, “At the end of a round of combat, if there are solely Confederate Battery(s) left, the attacker must either fight another round of Naval Combat or the attacker must resolve the Union Assault per 10.42.

For ease of reference, 10.42 reads: “A Union attacker who has destroyed or compelled the retreat of all the Confederate defender’s Gunboats, Ironclads and combat-involved Raiders in a Port or Fort must immediately resolve an Assault (11) against that Port or Fort.”

Each Confederate Battery provides the Rebel Player one die per Battery for resolving a Land Assault. The Rules and Play Book should explain Land Assault. A Union Amphibious Assault is resolved like a Land Assault.


hi,
the problem is that the rules you quote above are mutually contradictory and do not explain what happens to batteries that are still in place after an assault is resolved.

10.25 says that if only batteries are left to defend an area, you can choose to keep attacking with your vessels to destroy the batteries before assaulting, or you can assault immediately against an area that has an extra die for each remaining battery. But 10.42 says you do not have such option, and that if only batteries are left in place then you must attack.

The real trouble though is that both rules say you can assault when batteries are still in place, as long as enemy vessels are gone. Then let's say that I assault a city that still has batteries; I roll my dice, the opponent rolls his, and I win. Now I have taken control of a city that still has batteries in it, because they were there at the beginning of the assault and there are no indications that they must be removed during or after the assault. So what do you do with those batteries? Your comment seems to imply you remove them, but this is not clearly stated in the rules.
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Michael Collarin
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Well this is interesting...

The "old" rules still posted online seemed to have a little better direction:

10.25 At the end of a round of combat, if there are any Batteries left, the attacker MAY conduct another round of combat OR may retreat to the Port/Blockade Station from which the attacker entered the battle (10.36).

Retreat was the other option; not immediately Assault

10.42 A Union attacker who has destroyed or compelled the retreat of all the Confederate defender’s Gunboats, Ironclads and combat-involved Raiders in a Port or Fort MUST immediately resolve an Assault (11) against that Port or Fort.

And then this version of 10.42, similar to the one above, states that when all CSA combat ships have been eliminated or forced to retreat, that the Assaut occurs - no mention of batteries. Meaning USA ships cannot continue to bombard the battery before Assaulting. However, given the die rolls, I don't think any Union player would choose to do so. EDIT(2): Still thinking about this one...


EDIT: Now that I've had my coffee... I'm seeing we still have an issue of batteries remaining and 10.25 giving an option of retreat whereas 10.42 says an Assault MUST occur immediately. I'm thinking the 10.42 MUST would work better as MAY.

Also, in 10.12 is the following:

Ship Sortie: A defender may elect to defend Battery(s) by a sortie. In this event, the defending ships solely fight the attacking ships. If all defending ships are destroyed, the attacker may continue the battle against the Battery(s) with the next round of combat.

Here the ships are destroyed with battery remaining and there is a possible next round of combat; not immediate assault.

10.42 has to be MAY.
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Marco Arnaudo
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hi Michael,
thank you for your post, which reveals that there are inconsistencies about whether assault is optional or mandatory when batteries are still there. I personally like the idea of a decision to make there: do I assault now, when the landings are going to be tougher, or do I keep attacking with my vessels, trying to prepare a better ground for the landings but exposing the ships to more danger? It works mechanically, it works thematically.

However, you still would get the possibility to capture a city with batteries in it. Come to think of it, if the guns from the boats have not destroyed all batteries at the time in which the amphibious assault starts, doesn't it make sense that the disembarked attackers would attack the soldiers manning the batteries rather than to physically try to destroy the gun? It would actually be in their interest to leave the batteries there, to use them once they control the area. Captured guns are not unheard of in military history...
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Marco Arnaudo
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I asked the designer about the issues above in a FB message. Here's the reply:

"You can keep attacking the batteries as long as you want to. If your ships are sunk or retreat, you then attack the port as if it were a land battle (all part of the same cannon pawn). The rebels get an extra die for each battery. If you win, the batteries are destroyed."
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Fred Schachter
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Gentlemen,

With respect, the REBEL RAIDERS rules, with additional reinforcement by Play Book example, contain the answers being sought when it comes to resolving combat involving Batteries.

Michael, you're 100% correct that the Union has the OPTION of continuing a Naval Assault.

We've noted rule 10.25 under Naval Combat, “At the end of a round of combat, if there are solely Confederate Battery(s) left, the attacker must either fight another round of Naval Combat or the attacker must resolve the Union Assault per 10.42.

Reading 10.42 in isolation from 10.25 will cause confusion and this is regretable. Per 10.42: “A Union attacker who has destroyed or compelled the retreat of all the Confederate defender’s Gunboats, Ironclads and combat-involved Raiders in a Port or Fort MUST immediately resolve an Assault (11) against that Port or Fort." There is no reason to add the word "may" here since you'd only come to this rule by CHOOSING to halt the Naval Combat per 10.25.

Viewing rules piecemeal for any game can cause misunderstanding and REBEL RAIDERS is no exception.

Mark and I are advocates of including examples of certain rules, which may be difficult for players to "wrap their heads around" (not due to the players... but that a particular design element is introducing a concept which may present an unusual gaming situation in players' experience).

This is the case for the topic this email string covers. Kindly reference the Play Book's Extended Example of Play page 21, the lower portion of right hand text column under the "Decisions, Decisions" title.

This describes the conclusion of a Union Naval Assault on New Orleans. The Union has fought rounds of Naval Combat and with but a single Sloop versus a Battery remaining chooses to break off the Naval engagement with no Confederate warships remaining in New Orleans so as not to risk their last Steam Sloop.

This is all in accordance with rule 10.25. Since the Union has ceased Naval Combat, rule 10.42 comes into play which compels resolution of a Land Assault per rule section 11.

I hope this puts this issue satisfactorily to rest and allows all who've been reading this email string to appreciate this aspect of Batteries in the game. Marco, from your last post it seems we've finally resolved your inquiries to allow you to resume playing the game rather than wrestle with the rules.

If not, keep the questions coming.

Enjoy REBEL RAIDERS ON THE HIGH SEAS!



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