jose carrion
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When a Cartaginian army attacks one Roman army led by the 2 proconsuls
( Scipio Africanus and other), can the Roman player decide which of the Procunsuls are in command with no restriction?

Example (1) Hannibal +10 CU attacks a Roman army of 4 CU +Scipio+ Fabius in Cosa.

Can the Roman player decide than Fabius is the leader and use his Special Ability to avoid that dangerous battle?

anda what happens if Fabius roll a 6? Fabius will be the leader or can the roman player put Scipio in command now?

Example (2)

Nero (proconsul) +5 CU is attacked by Hannibal +10 CU. Scipio Africanus + 4 CU is in a adjacent space from Nero, and he intercepts

Now Rome has 9 CU + Nero + Scipio, and Hannibal decide to attack.

who commands now the roman army? Can Rome decide that now Scipio is the leader?


 
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Russ Williams
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
I've always understood rule 9.3 ("Normally, the owning player may decide which of his generals will be the commander and which will be the subordinate and he is free to change the commander before he activates the army.") and 10.2 ("Select the general you wish to activate. If there are two or more generals with an army you may designate which is the commanding general (under the restrictions of 9.3).") and 10.8 to mean that you can only decide which of an army's several eligible commanders is the current commander when you activate the army, and not at any arbitrary moment you like.
 
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jose carrion
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
ok, when you activate the army.. but is the same when you are attacked?

for example my case 2 ?
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Brandon Ketchum
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
There is no restriction. The change of command die roll is for Consular armies only; armies containing two proconsuls do not have a change of command roll.
 
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Russ Williams
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
horak wrote:
ok, when you activate the army.. but is the same when you are attacked?

for example my case 2 ?

Hmm, yes, that's different indeed.
12.6 says "If both/all interceptions succeed, then the armies are combined in the space under the command of one general and the combined force faces the moving army." which I suppose is intended to mean that you can choose the commander if there's more than one eligible general.
 
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Richard Young
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
Keeping in mind the rule that Consuls always outrank Proconsuls, the player has discretion as to who is "in charge" in all cases other than what is specifically referred to in the rules.
 
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
Bubslug wrote:
Keeping in mind the rule that Consuls always outrank Proconsuls, the player has discretion as to who is "in charge" in all cases other than what is specifically referred to in the rules.

Do you mean that the player can switch between the eligible commanders at any time (e.g. when an army gets attacked)?

Or just that the player can switch them at the specific moments mentioned in the rules (e.g. activating an army; intercepting armies merging together)?
 
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
russ wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
Keeping in mind the rule that Consuls always outrank Proconsuls, the player has discretion as to who is "in charge" in all cases other than what is specifically referred to in the rules.

Do you mean that the player can switch between the eligible commanders at any time (e.g. when an army gets attacked)?

Or just that the player can switch them at the specific moments mentioned in the rules (e.g. activating an army; intercepting armies merging together)?
I probably dashed that off too quickly. The general statement is that a player can decide who is in charge of an army or army group any time a decision is needed. And yes, that can change from situation to situation as the player chooses. However, within that there is the fact that Consuls always outrank Pro-consuls, and there may be times when a change of command die roll will alter the player's preferred command structure.
 
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jose carrion
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
The question of Consuls-proconsul is pretty clear. My question was only about having 2 proconsuls together. In fact, could be the same question with 2 cartaginian generals other than Hannibal, for example Mago and Gisco : try to avoid battle with Gisco and his special hability, but if it fails, Mago and his battle ranking 2 is the leader or the army for the battle.

For me, this is the best resume of the question:


The general statement is that a player can decide who is in charge of an army or army group any time a decision is needed. And yes, that can change from situation to situation as the player chooses.


in other words:

Outside the instances where the rules specifically dictate, the player can decide.


Thanks for all the answers
 
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Andy Latto
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
Bubslug wrote:
I probably dashed that off too quickly. The general statement is that a player can decide who is in charge of an army or army group any time a decision is needed. And yes, that can change from situation to situation as the player chooses. However, within that there is the fact that Consuls always outrank Pro-consuls, and there may be times when a change of command die roll will alter the player's preferred command structure.

I don't think this is correct; can you point to anything in the rulebook that supports this claim?

The reason I think this is incorrect is that sections 12.7 and 13.3 specify that when intercepting or avoiding battle with a subordinate general, you must leave the commanding general and at least 1 CU (or 5 CU if it's a Consul) behind. This restriction would be completely meaningless if you could just say "I'm putting the subordinate general in command now, and having him make the intercept/avoid roll for the entire army".

And rule 10.8 says that "if a general ends his move in a space containing another general of equal rank, then the activated general becomes the commanding general and the other general becomes a subordinate". There would be no reason to have this rule if you could immediately switch and put the other general in command.

I think that when you activate a general, or use them to perform an interception or avoid battle, they are in command, and remain in command as long as they stay with the army, unless something happens to change that.

This is an unfortunate area of ambiguities in the rules, though; Suppose a general retreats or withdraws into a space with a general of equal rank; who is in command? I generally resolve all these ambiguous situations by allowing the player to decide who is in command at that point.

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Re: 2 Proconsuls
andylatto wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
I probably dashed that off too quickly. The general statement is that a player can decide who is in charge of an army or army group any time a decision is needed. And yes, that can change from situation to situation as the player chooses. However, within that there is the fact that Consuls always outrank Pro-consuls, and there may be times when a change of command die roll will alter the player's preferred command structure.

I don't think this is correct; can you point to anything in the rulebook that supports this claim?

The reason I think this is incorrect is that sections 12.7 and 13.3 specify that when intercepting or avoiding battle with a subordinate general, you must leave the commanding general and at least 1 CU (or 5 CU if it's a Consul) behind. This restriction would be completely meaningless if you could just say "I'm putting the subordinate general in command now, and having him make the intercept/avoid roll for the entire army".

And rule 10.8 says that "if a general ends his move in a space containing another general of equal rank, then the activated general becomes the commanding general and the other general becomes a subordinate". There would be no reason to have this rule if you could immediately switch and put the other general in command.

I think that when you activate a general, or use them to perform an interception or avoid battle, they are in command, and remain in command as long as they stay with the army, unless something happens to change that.

This is an unfortunate area of ambiguities in the rules, though; Suppose a general retreats or withdraws into a space with a general of equal rank; who is in command? I generally resolve all these ambiguous situations by allowing the player to decide who is in command at that point.

I think we are in agreement here. I said in an earlier post that outside the instances where the rules specifically dictate, the player can decide. The quote being referred to laterally, was intended as a clarification of what I had said in those "outside the specific rules" instances where the rules are not particularly helpful. Looks to me that we have the same approach...
 
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
I believe that I need more clarification about that question.

this was my original question:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hannibal +10 CU attacks a Roman army of 4 CU +Scipio+ Fabius in Cosa.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

let me say something to let more clear: the question is ¿ who was the Roman Comanding General at that moment? I mean.. the last time the 4CU Roman Army was activated, was by Scipio or by Fabius?

Who was on board and who was on the Holding Box?

9.3: " normally the owning player may decide which of his General will be the commander and which teh subordiante, and he is free to change the command before he activates the Army.

So the question I need to understand is :

A)
¿ "activate" is just moving in your turn, by playing a Strategy Card ( so avoid battle and intercept is NOT " activate" an Army and therefore you can´t change the Commandig General)?

or

B)
¿ " activate" is whenever your Army take and action, it doesn´t matter if it is being Active Player( playing Strategy Card) or non active Player ( avoid battle or intercept) ?


In my example, if Scipio was the Commanding General ( because last Action Round I play a "1" card, putting Scipio in command), I wouldn´t be able to use Fabius Special Hability to avoid battle with all the UC+Scipio. By 13.3, Scipio and at least 1 CU would be left Behind if I try to Avoid Battle with Fabius, who was at that momment, subordinate to Scipio

So I believe that the really true answer to my original question is:

Whenever you PLAY a Strategy Card, you activate an Army and you are free of change the Commanding General.That General Would remain in Command until the next time you play a Strategy Card and freely choose to change de Commanding General. If you need to take an Interception or Avoid Battle action, the Commanding General is the General who is on board at this moment, you CAN´T change Commanding General being " the non active player"

10.8 Combining Armies is clear in a lot of situations, and 12.7 "after the effects of an Interception have been resolved, the controlling player may choose the Commandig General if the Army consists of two equally ranked Generals"

( note that this is not a way of change the command of an "old" Army which was on a space, is a way of decide who is the Command of a NEW Army that have been created by the non-active player)

there are no rule for Combining Armies by a Avoid Battle, but it´s logical to think that is the same way as Combining Armies by an Interception: if the NEW army consists of two equally ranked Generals, the non-active player choose. If one General outranks the other, end of the question.




 
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
horak wrote:
When a Cartaginian army attacks one Roman army led by the 2 proconsuls
( Scipio Africanus and other), can the Roman player decide which of the Procunsuls are in command with no restriction?

Example (1) Hannibal +10 CU attacks a Roman army of 4 CU +Scipio+ Fabius in Cosa.

Can the Roman player decide than Fabius is the leader and use his Special Ability to avoid that dangerous battle?

anda what happens if Fabius roll a 6? Fabius will be the leader or can the roman player put Scipio in command now?

Example (2)

Nero (proconsul) +5 CU is attacked by Hannibal +10 CU. Scipio Africanus + 4 CU is in a adjacent space from Nero, and he intercepts

Now Rome has 9 CU + Nero + Scipio, and Hannibal decide to attack.

who commands now the roman army? Can Rome decide that now Scipio is the leader?


So the answer to (1) is

if Fabius is on Command ( Fabius being the last Command General when that Army was moved by a Strategy Card, and Scipio being in holding Box of Fabius), you can try to avoid battle with Fabius and all the army ( succeeds with 1-5) but if you fail, Fabius is the Commanding General for the battle. You Can´t change the commanding General being " non active player", only being Active player.

is Scipio is the Commanding General ( Scipio being the last Command General when that Army was moved by a Strategy Card and Fabius being on Holding Box of Scipio) you can try to avoid battle with Scipio and all the army ( succeeds with 1-4) or try to avoid batle with your Subordinate Fabius ( succeeds with 1-5, but in that case,by 13.3, Scipio and at least 1 CU must be lef behind) If Fabius fail the Avoid Battle, Scipio is still in Command and Fabius still the subordinate.


and the anwer to (2) is

by 12.7 the non active player freely choose the new Commanding General ot the new Army. In that case if you choose Scipio, Nero goes to the holding Box of Scipio and becomes a Subordinate.
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
This interpretation relies heavily on extrapolating from the few specifics given in the rules. I'm not sure if it is considered "golden." Anyone know how WBC (World Board-gaming Championships) treats this issue?
 
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jose carrion
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Re: 2 Proconsuls
it woul be interesting to know, yes.

But think in this: if you could freely choose the comammding General in any situation..¿why in 10.8 specify that" If a General ends its move in a space containing another general of equal Rank, then the activated General becomes the comanding General and the other becomes a subordinate"?

I think that the answer is

All the situations when 2 o more Generals are in the same space, are detailed in 10.8. There are no situations when you can freely choose, except 12.7 ( when a new Army is created and the non active player choose the new Commanding General if there are 2 o more equally ranged Generals)

I think that this means that when you are the " non active player" you can´t change the Comanding General of an Army. The General who is on the board is the Commanding General for all the actions you do as a " non active player" until your turn, when you can play a Strategy Card, active that Army and freely change the Commanding General.

So when you take an action as a " non active player" like Intercept or Avoid Battle, you must take that action with the General on board as a Commanding General, and the Generals on the Holding box as a Subordinates. There are specific rules for intercept with subordinates ( 12.7) avoid battle with subordinates ( 13.3)

Of course, I might be wrong. I´d like to read more opinios

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Loïc Boué
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The Commanding General is the one on the board, the Subordinate General is the one in the holding box of the Commanding General. They can't be swapped as the non-active roman player wishes. Consuls might be swapped if the Carthaginian player asks for Change in Command roll.

Who is the Commanding General is decided during the active roman player turn. Most of the time he has no choice as Consuls outranks Proconsul and the activated General becomes the Commanding General if not outranked.

However, Subordinate Generals can still intercept or avoid battles on their own, but they must leave the Commanding General with 5 CU if he is a Consul or 1 CU if he is a Proconsul.

There are other cases that are covered by the "roman player decides" rule. That rule is not supposed to trump the rules above.
Those cases are all the cases when two equal rank generals end up in the same location without one of them having been activated :
- when you bring in reinforcements (ie : put two Consuls in the same Army);
- when two equal rank generals intercept in the same location;
- when two equal rank generals end up in the same location after avoid battle or retreat.


Those rules cover the rigid political arrangements in Rome, so it makes sense that they can be tactically unwise :
- Consuls outrank Proconsuls, always.
- Consuls alternate in command, even if this might be tactically unsound (Hannibal played on that for Cannae).
- When a General has been given command by the Senate (ie activated) he stays in command and won't be relieved "on the spot" for tactical reasons.
- A Subordinate General can exert initiative on a part of the army he has been entrusted with by the Commanding General, but he can't take the army away from the Commanding General (a Consular Army in case of a Consul, a Proconsul is more flexible) or take command instead of the Commanding General.
 
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