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Subject: Are Rebel's just terrible? rss

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Jason Blakeney
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Yeah...

I've been listening to The Smuggler's Den podcast lately, and I guess I am one of those guys who just reeeaaaalllly wants to build a good Rebel deck.

My buddy and I play this game pretty much every week and I have become obsessed with the idea of shaming him (you know you are) with the clearly underdog Rebels.

I am NOT new to deck-building and have designed a couple fun-to-play Dark Side decks on my own. They are pretty good, too. Love those Weequays! I even made a nice pure Jedi Deck that can handle a good beating and win sometimes too.

I just can't do it with Rebels. So I was hoping some of you guys might give me a few suggestions on how I can not only BUILD a decent Rebel deck, but how said deck should actually be played.

Here are a few points that might help:

1. I DO NOT play this game competitively. So Tiny, I am NOT looking for a beat-all Rebel deck (although I am sure you don't believe one exists, hehe). I am just looking for a deck that I STAND A CHANCE with.

2. The other night, I played a Rebel deck that gave me 3 Target of Opportunities on the first deal, followed by a Home One and a Renegade Squadron on turn 3. Even with those great cards, I lost the game because I had no board control, and pretty much never stand a good chance at keeping the Force as Rebels.

3. I DO NOT own two Core Sets. I know, a tough problem just got tougher. I am not entirely sold on two Core sets as of yet, although I DO know that having two would help my decks be more consistent. I am just not at that point yet. I am hoping that I can still build a fun, DECENT Rebel deck with the one set. Again, not looking for a Tournament leader, here.

4. I also have both of the first two Force packs, Desolation of Hoth and Search for Skywalker.


And that's about it. Any ideas or suggestions would be awesome.
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Matthew Saloff
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"Are Rebels just terrible?"

Well, clearly they are pretty good, as a Rebel deck just won the FFG Star Wars Game Experience mega regional event last weekend. ^_^

The big thing with Rebels is they just play extremely different from Jedi. Once you learn their strengths and weaknesses there are a couple neat builds you can do with them.
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Jason Blakeney
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Mattr0polis wrote:
"Are Rebels just terrible?"

Well, clearly they are pretty good, as a Rebel deck just won the FFG Star Wars Game Experience mega regional event last weekend. ^_^


I agree, and I know about that win. I think it was the same guy the Smuggler's Den interviewed.

Mattr0polis wrote:
The big thing with Rebels is they just play extremely different from Jedi. Once you learn their strengths and weaknesses there are a couple neat builds you can do with them.


Do you have an suggestions for how to create and manage a good build?
 
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Alexander Duprey
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Will you be at the Orlando regionals this saturday at Sci-Fi city?
 
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Jason Blakeney
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No, sorry.
 
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Garrett
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I'm sure you've read this elsewhere, but here are two main problems people have with Rebels:

1) You don't have to attack each turn.

2) Don't put all your units in one engagement.

If you have no hope of winning the edge battle, hold off for a turn. Sometimes you need your big units as edge more than you need them in play. I think your biggest obstacle is enemy tactics icons. Try to get shielding or some tactics of your own to combat guys like Palpatine.
 
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Matt Lernout
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Rebel Assault and Heavy Blaster Emplacement (especially backed by Battlefield Engineers) can put continuous pressure on your opponent and help with board presence. Landing an Emplacement (or both) early game can make it a difficult uphill battle if your opponent doesn't have any large vehicles to soak up all the incoming damage.

A vehicle build can nullify many of the DS tricks, notably Force Choke and Boba Fett.

A shield strategy combining Preparation for Battle and Fleeing the Empire is probably worth a fair shake, although I have yet to try that personally.
 
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Scott Egan
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Rebel Heavy decks have been taking high spots at alot of the recent regionals, so I do not think it is possible to call them terrible any longer.
 
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Scott Egan
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BakaMattSu wrote:
Rebel Assault and Heavy Blaster Emplacement (especially backed by Battlefield Engineers) can put continuous pressure on your opponent and help with board presence. Landing an Emplacement (or both) early game can make it a difficult uphill battle if your opponent doesn't have any large vehicles to soak up all the incoming damage.

A vehicle build can nullify many of the DS tricks, notably Force Choke and Boba Fett.

A shield strategy combining Preparation for Battle and Fleeing the Empire is probably worth a fair shake, although I have yet to try that personally.


HWI just isn't good at this point. It is only useful if it comes out early, and if your opponent doesn't get some beef on the board. Every DS has a pretty strong selection of >1 HP units really nullifying it's control abilities in Rebel decks. This is compounded by the fact that the rest of the set besides the Engineers, is really not good. It is a set with no Blast Icons (you can't have that many support objectives in a LS deck and there are better), mostly overpriced units with meh abilities (Engineer excluded), and an objective ability that looks better then it is

The Engineers are quite good, but they don't have enough enhancements to play with. Right now the only good ones for them is the HWI, Echo Caverns, and Wedge (there are order of operations issues here though). Smugglers and Rebels don't mix well at this point though.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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So after a couple more games I managed to get a win with my current Rebel build. Just thought I would post the Deck so that you guys might be able to offer suggestions to fine tune it.


Affiliation:
Smugglers and Spies (Core)

Total Objective Sets: (10)

1x The Rebel Fleet (Core)
Home One (Core)
Y-Wing (Core)
Repair Droid (Core)
Hidden Outpost (Core)
Target of Opportunity (Core)

1x Draw Their Fire (Core)
Admiral Ackbar (Core)
X-Wing Escort (Core)
X-Wing (Core)
Fleet Command Center (Core)
Heroic Sacrifice (Core)

1x Hit and Run (Core)
Secret Informant (Core)
Secret Informant (Core)
Heat of Battle (Core)
Target of Opportunity (Core)
Twist of Fate (Core)

2x Hoth Operations (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wedge Antilles (The Desolation of Hoth)
Rogue Three (The Desolation of Hoth)
Snowspeeder (The Desolation of Hoth)
Hoth Survival Gear (The Desolation of Hoth)
Target of Opportunity (The Desolation of Hoth)

1x Echo Base Defense (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Subzero Defenses (The Desolation of Hoth)
Subzero Defenses (The Desolation of Hoth)

2x Sensors Are Placed (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Defender (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Defender (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Base (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Base Shield Generator (The Search For Skywalker)
First Marker (The Search For Skywalker)

2x Renegade Squadron Mobilization (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron Operative (The Search For Skywalker)
Munitions Expert (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Caverns (The Search For Skywalker)
Target of Opportunity (The Search For Skywalker)
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Richard Dickson
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hundreds wrote:

2x Renegade Squadron Mobilization (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron Operative (The Search For Skywalker)
Munitions Expert (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Caverns (The Search For Skywalker)
Target of Opportunity (The Search For Skywalker)


Echo Caverns makes it crazy not to use this set in a Rebel deck. Caverns plus Han is just lethal, stealing unit damage icons from opponents and targeted striking them into oblivion, stealing tactics icons and forever locking units down. Got absolutely mauled by this combo a few times at regionals.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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I do love Echo Caverns. Makes the opponent constantly think "just what the heck is he gonna do with that thing!?"

Problem I have with adding Han into this deck is that I only have one core and Han just does not come out consistently enough to warrant including him in this deck.
 
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Scott Egan
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hundreds wrote:
So after a couple more games I managed to get a win with my current Rebel build. Just thought I would post the Deck so that you guys might be able to offer suggestions to fine tune it.


Affiliation:
Smugglers and Spies (Core)

Total Objective Sets: (10)

1x The Rebel Fleet (Core)
Home One (Core)
Y-Wing (Core)
Repair Droid (Core)
Hidden Outpost (Core)
Target of Opportunity (Core)

1x Draw Their Fire (Core)
Admiral Ackbar (Core)
X-Wing Escort (Core)
X-Wing (Core)
Fleet Command Center (Core)
Heroic Sacrifice (Core)

1x Hit and Run (Core)
Secret Informant (Core)
Secret Informant (Core)
Heat of Battle (Core)
Target of Opportunity (Core)
Twist of Fate (Core)

2x Hoth Operations (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wedge Antilles (The Desolation of Hoth)
Rogue Three (The Desolation of Hoth)
Snowspeeder (The Desolation of Hoth)
Hoth Survival Gear (The Desolation of Hoth)
Target of Opportunity (The Desolation of Hoth)

1x Echo Base Defense (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Wilderness Fighters (The Desolation of Hoth)
Subzero Defenses (The Desolation of Hoth)
Subzero Defenses (The Desolation of Hoth)

2x Sensors Are Placed (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Defender (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Defender (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Base (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Base Shield Generator (The Search For Skywalker)
First Marker (The Search For Skywalker)

2x Renegade Squadron Mobilization (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron (The Search For Skywalker)
Renegade Squadron Operative (The Search For Skywalker)
Munitions Expert (The Search For Skywalker)
Echo Caverns (The Search For Skywalker)
Target of Opportunity (The Search For Skywalker)


Your biggest issue is going to be that you do not have enough objective damage. You have alot of great control cards but I don't think you have the hitting power overall. But it is on the cusp overall with 20 and those Target of Opp. I think Hit and Run is just a bad set, those informants are just so expensive for their stats, especially the HP.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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That is true. In fact, I have found that the Rebel's tend to lack in the Objective damage department as a general observation. I found myself counting my measly blast icons and wondering how I am supposed to bust through with all that lack of fire power.

It IS true that Hit and Run offers those two Secret Informants at a rather high cost for how long they tend to survive. Many times I am only able to play one of them and maybe a single cost enhancement on a given turn. That might seem bad, and probably is. But here is what I have found:

My deck has 6 Target's of Opportunity in it, along with 1 Heat of Battle, and 1 Twist of Fate. Since the Rebels are crap for Force icons, and I only have the one Twist of Fate, I decided to build the deck heavily leaning on mostly ignoring the WINNING aspect of edge battles. Once in a while, I get that Twist of Fate, and that's cool, but most of the time I am on the losing side of an edge battle, and my units mostly don't care. It's those Target's of Opportunity that I focus on.

I do have to be careful about how I use them, if my opponent is playing any sets with their own Twists of Fate, but I have been able to play them pretty well, and often times find that Secret Informant very helpful in maximizing their effects. I can usually hide one or two of them into an engagement that either the enemy lets through because it seems so inconsequential, or that he defends thinking that when he easily wins the edge battle, he'll just kill my attacker. Of curse, those tactics won't last forever as the enemy will likely learn from his mistakes.

It's crazy because I actually played a game where I managed to pick up on my first hand THREE (3) Target's of Opportunity and one Secret Informant. I thought that had to be a fluke, until it happened again on the next game I played. Sure, I can't count on that every game I play, but with 6 in there, the chance of drawing one on almost every turn is pretty high.

When I first started playing the Rebel's I immediately realized that I HATE having to be on the offensive. I just love playing a nice Sith Control deck or an Imperial deck that is just packed with defensive units. I have always been that way in games. Even when I used to play Age of Empires III, I would customarily play a defensive game, building up a ridiculous force, and then eventually leading my army on the offensive, like water over the sand. And even when I finally left the confines of my walled in section of territory, I made sure that the walls had enough defensive units on them so as to kind of be self-sustaining - automatic defense.

So in order to get myself into the comfortable zone with playing as the Rebel's I have to be sure that while my units are out attacking, dying, and getting focused, doing what Rebel's do best, my Objectives back home have some layer of automatic defense on them. That way I can send out an attack force, do some damage, maybe keep a unit back to keep the Force focused, and be relatively OK with the enemy attacking my "undefended" Objectives. And so to make that happen, I included cards like First Marker, Echo Caverns, Echo Base Shield Generator, Echo Base and Sub Zero Defenses. I have complimented those cards with having nearly ALL Hoth Objectives.

And since a lot of the necessary cards are relatively cheap, I don't have to have a TON of Resource Enhancements to get to the optimum 5 for my play style and this deck.

Of course all of this is probably more easily said than done and I haven't played this deck a crazy number of times yet. But so far, it does seem to satisfy two major requirements of mine:

It's fun, and it's Rebels.
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Jarrett McBride
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Hit and Run pod isn't very good atm. In fact, I'd probably say its better in Jedi just because you can protect the Informants, and even then I wouldn't run them in that deck.

I think Rebels are fine. In fact, Tiny Grimes, the person that does the Smuggler's Den podcast, played a game on OCTGN and streamed it live.

http://www.twitch.tv/tinygrimes/b/403135678

He may have chocked it up to me drawing well, but Rebels play completely different than all the other affiliations, depending on the matchup. He played a game with them in another stream, and he drew close to what I thought was the god hand and didn't win - just gotta know how play them.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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Was your deck using two cores?
 
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Jarrett McBride
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It was using stuff from all the sets.
 
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Hal Martin
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So what happened to your mic half way thru? Was really tuff to hear, which wasn't the end all, but i like game wrap ups to hear strats.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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Jarrstin wrote:
It was using stuff from all the sets.


Right but can your deck be built with only ONE core?
 
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Garrett
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hundreds wrote:
I do love Echo Caverns. Makes the opponent constantly think "just what the heck is he gonna do with that thing!?"

Problem I have with adding Han into this deck is that I only have one core and Han just does not come out consistently enough to warrant including him in this deck.


Actually, I'm running 2x Echo Caverns and only one copy of Han even though I have 2 core sets. Just because you have only one, doesn't make him less powerful. Then again, the reason I justified having just one is that I hope to have protectors or Redemption in play when Han comes out. I'm basically saying that Redemption makes it like I have 2 Hans but if I don't draw him, I can save any number of cards instead of just having that second Han.
 
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Scott Egan
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Jarrstin wrote:
Hit and Run pod isn't very good atm. In fact, I'd probably say its better in Jedi just because you can protect the Informants, and even then I wouldn't run them in that deck.

I think Rebels are fine. In fact, Tiny Grimes, the person that does the Smuggler's Den podcast, played a game on OCTGN and streamed it live.

http://www.twitch.tv/tinygrimes/b/403135678

He may have chocked it up to me drawing well, but Rebels play completely different than all the other affiliations, depending on the matchup. He played a game with them in another stream, and he drew close to what I thought was the god hand and didn't win - just gotta know how play them.


Or your opponent has to forget that he sitting on a 2 HP Emperor's Royal Guard and let his Palpatine die to a Rebel Assault...

There is no reason he should have let Palpatine die there, and even not winning edge he has enough to focus out your to units to not allow the last strike on the objective destroying it. If he then draws in his 6 cards two more objective damage icons he wins the game with you having no defenders, destroying two more objectives for very strong tiebreakers as well. If he doesn't end the game there if you draw another Rebel Assault or can force through a ToO or win an edge battle you'd take that game with the dial at 10.

You both missed that he had a protector on the board so I'm not sure if that game is the example you want it to be. I didn't listen to the rest of the video after the games conclusion so I'm not sure if either of you caught it, but just jumping through I didn't see you guys replaying that last turn so I'd have to assume you didn't.

Though I will say this, Tiny can not chalk that game up to you drawing well, because he drew well himself. Turn 1 a ton of resources and a protector, two a Dev, and by three Palpatine. That is a fairly strong curve out the only thing stronger would have been switching the order of the Palp and the Dev.
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CJ Ren
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Think I am starting to believe Rebels , while not terrible, are just not optimal.

they can pull out crazy wins... but they can also get screwed just as easily. Pulling no hoth operations(or the opponent droping hoth objs), getting rogue 3 yanked from your hand, drawing no speeders...so many ways the rebel deck just falls apart against sith control.

 
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Jason Blakeney
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But it sure is fun running them. I like crazy wins and massive losses.
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Scott Egan
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tierdal wrote:
Think I am starting to believe Rebels , while not terrible, are just not optimal.

they can pull out crazy wins... but they can also get screwed just as easily. Pulling no hoth operations(or the opponent droping hoth objs), getting rogue 3 yanked from your hand, drawing no speeders...so many ways the rebel deck just falls apart against sith control.



Chris, all of those things happened to me in varying games on Saturday. I had Rogue 3 and a Rebel Assault yanked from my hand in the same game. I rarely saw Hoth Operations to open, and in the finals had it not active to start due to the Killing Cold. And I saw few Speeders in some match-ups.

Still won all 7 games, with the dial never getting above 6. John had a similar day as far as wins go, though his opponent got the dials much higher overall. But he played at least 4 games against strong Sith Control decks (2 vs Me and 2 vs Tommy) and won all those matches. Tommy's DS deck had not lost a tournament game since before our Regional which was a month ago.

It's not like the Jedi or Jedi/Smug decks aren't just as open to getting worked over by Sith Control. They rely on a few very big cards for the majority of their objective damage abilities presently. A early game yank of both Luke's is going to effect that deck more then a Rebel Deck losing both Rogue 3's, simply because the Rebel deck has more ability to put objective damage on the board overall.

That has the effect of making Rebels the straight up faster deck. This means that you can better exploit the weakness in the really heavy control decks that were abound on Saturday. They need resources out early to not just play Palp or Vader, but to be able to play more units then just one Interrogation Droid. Rebels currently have way better tools to hammer the opposing Sith deck early in order to just outright win the game or get enough damage out there to manufacture the win later.

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Jason Blakeney
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Scott, would you mind sharing your deck list?
 
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