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Subject: Oh, so many questions! They just keep coming! rss

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Nate Merchant
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We used compilation rules that I suspect are pretty near what everyone else has. A major change was that we restricted alliabnces to two players per alliance with no power-sharing.

1) In the Spice Round if a Worm is revealed as the top card, the Fremen may ride the Worm to any province on the board? Polar Sink, stone outcroppings, strongholds? This doesn't make too much sense if the Fremen can send subsequent worms that turn to only desert territories.

2) When the Fremen ride the first worm to a territory, I assume it devours any tokens there. What if they're Fremen?

3) Can cards be traded among players and/or allies? We played that we could not.

4) Can Fremen move some tokens with a Worm, but not all in the province?

5) There are differing rules that I've seen regarding Fremen moving into or out of a storm. When caught by a storm, they take half-losses. Can they move or ship into a storm, or move out of one? We played that they could, even into strongholds and battles, as long as they took half losses. Please advise.

6) If a player attacks with two starred tokens and dials three, what happens in the battle resolution? It would seem that both starred tokens go to the tanks, but I'm just checking.

7) Is the Imperial Basin considered a desert territory?

8) Leader revival: it would seem that the slain leaders would have to be kept in order in the Tanks, and revived in order. Is that so?

9) How is the Mercenary Card played?

10) When using a Karama card to nullify starred token bonuses, is that for ALL the starred tokens in that battle, or just one starred token?
 
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Tim Thorp
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
1.) A territory is any one of the 4 different locations on the board (sand, rock, Stronghold, Polar Sink) according to rule IIA. Therefore, a worm can take Fremen to any one area on the board. Of course, you can make a House rule for this.

2.) According to rule #3 on the Freman shield, if a worm appears in a territory where you have tokens, they are not devoured. This implies that any time a worm appears in a territory with Fremen, they are not devoured. (Also implied by the Alliance with Fremen rule at the bottom of the Fremen shield.)

3.) Though it doesn't actually say "no trading treachery cards" in the rules, Rule XIII D implies that trading between players is forbidden. It's definitely forbidden in the case of Alliance and/or Bribery.

4.) It is implied on the Fremen Shield that all of them move.

5.) Rule IX C, pargraph 1c: "no player may ship into a sector in storm..." Since there is no special rule that allows the Fremen to circumvent this, then that means the Fremen cannot do so. Note that the Fremen will take half losses during the storm phase. They would not move during the storm phase, so they cannot take half losses from the storm, then move out at the same time. However, according to the optional Fremen rules, you can ship in tokens into a storm at half loss. Also, a battle taking place in a stronghold is not subject to storm loss, so they would not take half loss for shipping into a stronghold in a storm.

6.) You can't divvy up starred tokens, so they would both go to the tanks.

7.) Yes it is. Yellow, orange, and brown territories are "Sand" territories, so they count as Desert. (Rule IIA 1)

8.) I've never seen a rule that states this, I would say no. You cannot revive until all are in the tanks, but you can revive in any order you wish.

9.) I don't have the Spice Harvest, or Duel set, so I can't answer this one. (I'm assuming it's in one of those.)

10.) The rule states that it nullifies Sardaukar/Fedaykin bonus in one battle. This means for all starred tokens the card was played against, not one token. (The bonus states that ALL of the starred tokens are Sardakaur/Fedaykin. Therefore, the Karama card nullifies all of the tokens.)

Man, that was tough! Hope that helps. This was my first time answering game questions; I hope I was clear. (Though I fear I was a bit muddled on question 5.) Of course, you're free to play the game as you wish, with whatever House rules you can come up with.
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Matt Albritton
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
First, I would recommend playing with just the basic rules with the addition of "XVI. Weather" and "XIX. Increased Spice Flow". All others (including Additional Character Advantages) add a lot of fiddliness to the game without any extra "meat". The basic game is perfectly balanced as is.

Now to your questions:

(1) For the Fremen to ride the first worm, they must have tokens in the last territory turned up. They can ride this worm to any territory (still following storm and stronghold limit rules). These ridden worms will not devour tokens. Using the "Additional Advantages", subsequent worms in the same "Spice Blow" phase may be placed in (not ridden to) any territory, but only devour tokens if placed in a desert territory.

(2) The ridden worm does NOT devour tokens. Fremen tokens are never devoured in any case.

(3) Trades may NOT include treachery cards, leaders, tokens, or character powers.

(4) You move all tokens or none.

(5) Fremen can't move out of a sector in storm. While using the "Additional Advantages", the Fremen may "ship" (but not move) into a sector in storm and take half loss.

(6) You can't dial "3" with only two Fedaykin present. You dial "2" or "4".

(7) Yes. But this territory is not affected by storms until someone blows the Shield Wall with Family Atomics.

(8) No. All leaders must be in the tanks before you can revive any of them. After that, they may be revived in any order (one leader per turn). If a leader is killed again before all other leaders have been revived, this leader needs to be in a separate stack. This leader can't be revived until all the other leaders are revived and killed again!

(9) I'll assume you are talking about a "Cheap Hero" card. The Cheap Hero is used on the battle wheel in place of a leader. This is the only time you can use three cards in battle. He/she has a 0 (zero) value and is killed in the normal way leaders are killed (then discarded). Very handy if you know you can kill the opponent's leader and win on tokens, because the cheap hero is never a traitor.

(10) Nullifies all starred bonuses in that one battle.


Have fun!
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Matt Albritton
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
Man! You just barely beat me to it. :-)

But it looks like we agree on everything.
 
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Tim Thorp
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
Thanks Matt! Your explanations have the advantage of being clear AND consise! Dune is my favorite boardgame of all, BTW.
 
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Nate Merchant
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
berserkley wrote:
Thanks Matt! Your explanations have the advantage of being clear AND consise! Dune is my favorite boardgame of all, BTW.


As it should be. I played it first as a young boy in the 80's, and after a few rules revisions, three days ago in my dotage! What a remarkable game! I thought I had hyped it to myself. Not at all! Still as fantastic as ever, with nail-biting battles!

Anyway, enough nostalgia, even over three days ago. Thanks both, very much. Matt, I don't know about the fiddliness of the Optional Character advanatages, save the Bene Gesserit co-existing. I find them pretty flavorful and cool. For instance, I think Fremen is underpowered normally but get enough advantages with the optional rules to balance them.

Mercenaries: There's a description on my translated player sheet, but no card. Well, thanks anyway.



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Nate Merchant
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
Whoa! If more Worm cards are drawn after a Nexus occurs, can the Fremen player send a worm to any territory where he has tokens, and can those tokens then ride the worm?
 
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Tim Thorp
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
Nope.
 
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Nate Merchant
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Re: Rules questions after 6-player game on 1/29/2006
After another play, some more questions if you all would be so kind:

1) If a Worm is drawn in the first turn, does a Nexus still occur, or is this ignored as it is the first turn?

2) I assume that the Fremen can "ship" to only one location, though it can be any of one multiple territories.

3) Does a Thumper card cause a Nexus in all respects?

4) If spice appears in a sector in storm, I assume it is destroyed.

5) Can one player's tokens move through other player's tokens (in the case with ornithopter use and Fremen movement)? Yes, except through strongholds where two players' tokens are already present.

6) Can a player use cards he deems useless in a battle as weapon/defense cards to get rid of them, but are not Worthless cards? For example, as the BG, I had the Harvester card, but could never get to any spice, so I did NOT want to risk increasing it. Any way to dump un-wanted but not Worthless cards?

7) If Family Atomics is used, is the Shield Wall region destroyed and impassable, or does it just revert to another normal rock territory?

8) I assume the only time you get spice for an opponent's leader dying in battle is through declaring "Treachery!" at the appropriate time. Wrong. Any time you kill a leader you gain the Leader's fighting value in spice if you win the battle.

9) Can the Fremen player disclose info about the storm in secret to his ally? Can the Atriedes do the same about Spice cards and Treachery cards?

10) The Treachery card Residual Poison mentions the Main Leader. What is the Main Leader of a faction?

Thanks again!
 
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Nate Merchant
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More questions...

1) I'm not sure I'm understanding why Fremen can "ship" into a storm region (and take half losses) but may not move into one. Anyone have a good reason for this? It just seems a bit arbitrary, as in both phases, the Fremen are basically moving.

2) In the rules, it says allies can pay for one another's Treachery cards and shipments. What about revivals?

3) In the Optional Rules, the BG may ship one free token with another player's shipment to that territory. May she instead ship to the Polar Sink, as in the normal rules? Or is the BG/Polar Sink relationship void in the Optional rules? And may she ship down with another player into a territory if that token will not be coexisting?

4) The Optional Rules, the BG may start in any territory of her choice. May she place in a territory the Fremen have already occupied, and declare coexistence? Can she do the same and declare non-coexistence? Can she place in one of the soon-to-be-occupied strongholds? For ease of play, starting the first BG token in the Polar Sink may be simplest.

5) When power-sharing between allies, can an ally decide NOT to share his or her power?

6) What is the rationale for allies sharing in an auto-win (Fremen, Guild). That would seem to entrench alliances and not to make them fluid. And may a player win a normal three-stronghold victory while part of an alliance? Why or why not?

7) The Emperor's shared power seems redundant, as allies can already share funds with each other. Is there something I'm missing?

8) Is there a special rule on bribes? It would seem that this rule could be abused and that any player could pay for any player's payment at any time, making the money-sharing of alliances superfluous.

9) Please explain how a Karama card can be played against the Emp to "bid and pay for a card". How much is bid? Does it go to the Emp or the bank?

10) An idle question: is there a reason that there is no stronghold defensive bonus in battles, at least against moving rather than shipping enemies?

Thanks loads!



 
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Robert Martin
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Hi -

I'm assuming you've probably checked out the FAQ, but just in case not, here is a link to it. It contains answers to many questions along these lines.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=12547
 
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Nate Merchant
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Rob,

this is more a Frequently Debated Questions, quite honestly. Yes, I have seen it before, but it almost caused more question than it answered. It's really hard to think of that as a FAQ, at all, unless, of course, I'm missing something.
 
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Jesse Miller
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Check the WBC Dune page for their list of clarifications:

http://www.boardgamers.org/yearbkex/dunpge.htm
 
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Nate Merchant
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Jesse, thanks to you and to Robert. However, both the FAQ and the Tourney rules raise a lot more questions than answer them, except to reveal that people do things a certain way. I'll keep poking and pestering. Thanks!
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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I can't really explain the other ones, but here goes:

7) The Emperor's shared power seems redundant, as allies can already share funds with each other. Is there something I'm missing?
Yes it is redundant

8) Is there a special rule on bribes? It would seem that this rule could be abused and that any player could pay for any player's payment at any time, making the money-sharing of alliances superfluous.
We usually play open bribe games so you can always pay for other people's costs (including revivals). This can be a great way to leverage power even when you are already in an alliance (they are very binding), and it also encourages people to have "non-binding alliances" where they work together but do not enter a formal alliance.

9) Please explain how a Karama card can be played against the Emp to "bid and pay for a card". How much is bid? Does it go to the Emp or the bank?
Basically this means the Emperor does not get any money for the card. So for example if someone bids 10 for a card you can play the Karama and bid infinity+1 and then Emperor wouldn't see a dime of it.

10) An idle question: is there a reason that there is no stronghold defensive bonus in battles, at least against moving rather than shipping enemies?
Well I haven't played in a while but can't you only have a certain number of people inside a stronghold? I thought only 3 people in one stronghold. This is an advantage of sorts.
 
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Brian Newman
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In order to make the Emperor's alliance power useful, we play with no bribes and no exchange of spice between allies except for what is explicitly listed in the alliance powers.
 
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Dan Freedman
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Quote:
1) I'm not sure I'm understanding why Fremen can "ship" into a storm region (and take half losses) but may not move into one. Anyone have a good reason for this? It just seems a bit arbitrary, as in both phases, the Fremen are basically moving.


Just my opinion, but the storm could hover around the Fremen entry point (especially when drawing a single token for movement). This rules allows the Fremen to at least get them on planet and moving in the right direction.

Quote:
2) In the rules, it says allies can pay for one another's Treachery cards and shipments. What about revivals?


Spice can always be given from any player to another for whatever.

Quote:
3) In the Optional Rules, the BG may ship one free token with another player's shipment to that territory. May she instead ship to the Polar Sink, as in the normal rules? Or is the BG/Polar Sink relationship void in the Optional rules? And may she ship down with another player into a territory if that token will not be coexisting?


Yes, No, No

Quote:
6) What is the rationale for allies sharing in an auto-win (Fremen, Guild). That would seem to entrench alliances and not to make them fluid. And may a player win a normal three-stronghold victory while part of an alliance? Why or why not?


Allies don't share in an end-of-game auto win. Even if Fremen and Guild were allied, only one or the other would win after turn 15. Most groups put a house rule in that 2 player alliances require 4 strongholds to win. 3 player alliances (if allowed) require 5 strongholds.
 
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BagpipeDan wrote:
9) Please explain how a Karama card can be played against the Emp to "bid and pay for a card". How much is bid? Does it go to the Emp or the bank?
Basically this means the Emperor does not get any money for the card. So for example if someone bids 10 for a card you can play the Karama and bid infinity+1 and then Emperor wouldn't see a dime of it.


It's been a long time since I've played, but I thought that you couldn't bid more than you normally could pay for -- and that the Karama card is used instead of the spice one would have paid for the bid.

Hence, you can't bid 'infinity+1' because you don't have that much.

I could be very mistaken, I'll have to pull my copy out soon and look.
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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byronczimmer wrote:
BagpipeDan wrote:
9) Please explain how a Karama card can be played against the Emp to "bid and pay for a card". How much is bid? Does it go to the Emp or the bank?
Basically this means the Emperor does not get any money for the card. So for example if someone bids 10 for a card you can play the Karama and bid infinity+1 and then Emperor wouldn't see a dime of it.


It's been a long time since I've played, but I thought that you couldn't bid more than you normally could pay for -- and that the Karama card is used instead of the spice one would have paid for the bid.

Hence, you can't bid 'infinity+1' because you don't have that much.

I could be very mistaken, I'll have to pull my copy out soon and look.


I specifically remember from the FAQ about "what if two people have a karama card?" and they said the first person to bid infinity won

Remember, if you have a karama, you can pay for ANY bid, no matter how ridiculous.
 
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Natus wrote:

8) I assume the only time you get spice for an opponent's leader dying in battle is through declaring "Treachery!" at the appropriate time. Wrong. Any time you kill a leader you gain the Leader's fighting value in spice if you win the battle.

Actually, the winner gets spice for any leaders killed in the battle, including his own. (Not just the leader you killed, ie. not just the opponent's leader.)

"Any leaders killed are immediately placed in the ‘tanks’. The winner immediately receives their value (including his own leader, if killed) in spice from the spice bank."

Note that spice is not collected when all forces die to a lasgun+shield explosion, nor when both leaders are declared to be traitors.
 
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Adam Ploshay
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Question regarding Alliances, territory conflict
I beg your pardon if this question is addressed elsewhere, but I've read the rules and looked around for an answer, and can't find one:

The rules state: Allies may not enter any territory (except the Polar Sink) in which one of their allies already has a token(s) and, thus, may never battle one another.

What would happen under the following circumstances:
(1) Non-allied players, say the Fremen and the Atreides, both move into different sectors of a territory, but are separated by a storm between them and so do not fight.
(2) The storm moves out of the territory, and over the Fremen tokens, destroying half of them, but leaving some behind so that both players still occupy the territory.
(3) Then a Nexus occurs, and the Fremen and Atreides ally.

My first question is, is an alliance even allowed if the players have tokens currently in conflict? If it is allowed, then I assume the tokens do *not* have to battle for possession of the territory, since they are allied, right? And does that mean, as long as both Fremen and Atreides tokens remain in the territory, that no one else can enter or move through the territory, since that would violate the territory crowding rule?
 
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Dan Freedman
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aploshay wrote:
I beg your pardon if this question is addressed elsewhere, but I've read the rules and looked around for an answer, and can't find one:

The rules state: Allies may not enter any territory (except the Polar Sink) in which one of their allies already has a token(s) and, thus, may never battle one another.

What would happen under the following circumstances:
(1) Non-allied players, say the Fremen and the Atreides, both move into different sectors of a territory, but are separated by a storm between them and so do not fight.
(2) The storm moves out of the territory, and over the Fremen tokens, destroying half of them, but leaving some behind so that both players still occupy the territory.
(3) Then a Nexus occurs, and the Fremen and Atreides ally.

My first question is, is an alliance even allowed if the players have tokens currently in conflict? If it is allowed, then I assume the tokens do *not* have to battle for possession of the territory, since they are allied, right? And does that mean, as long as both Fremen and Atreides tokens remain in the territory, that no one else can enter or move through the territory, since that would violate the territory crowding rule?


Good question. I'm not sure. I'd probably rule it that they could ally provided they make a public/binding agreement whereby one player agrees to moves all his tokens out during next movement.

Rgding 3rd question...Non-allies could always still move through/in the territory as the 2 player limit applies only to strongholds.
 
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Double Dan wrote:
aploshay wrote:
I beg your pardon if this question is addressed elsewhere, but I've read the rules and looked around for an answer, and can't find one:

The rules state: Allies may not enter any territory (except the Polar Sink) in which one of their allies already has a token(s) and, thus, may never battle one another.

What would happen under the following circumstances:
(1) Non-allied players, say the Fremen and the Atreides, both move into different sectors of a territory, but are separated by a storm between them and so do not fight.
(2) The storm moves out of the territory, and over the Fremen tokens, destroying half of them, but leaving some behind so that both players still occupy the territory.
(3) Then a Nexus occurs, and the Fremen and Atreides ally.

My first question is, is an alliance even allowed if the players have tokens currently in conflict? If it is allowed, then I assume the tokens do *not* have to battle for possession of the territory, since they are allied, right? And does that mean, as long as both Fremen and Atreides tokens remain in the territory, that no one else can enter or move through the territory, since that would violate the territory crowding rule?


Good question. I'm not sure. I'd probably rule it that they could ally provided they make a public/binding agreement whereby one player agrees to moves all his tokens out during next movement.

Rgding 3rd question...Non-allies could always still move through/in the territory as the 2 player limit applies only to strongholds.


Or you could just leave them there, since forcing a player to use up a move on it might be too harsh. Technically, allies can't *enter* a territory with an ally's tokens present, so already being there doesn't break any rules. Since it's not a stronghold and can have 3 or more armies, and all stronghold's are one-sector territories, it's not a big problem.
 
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