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Subject: Can an honest person be the traitor? rss

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Eric Bridge
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I do not have this game, and am seriously considering purchasing it. But as a Christian, I'm not comfortable lying even in a game or role-playing situation. Are there times where the traitor will have to blatantly lie to the other players to keep his/her cover from being blown, or is it more subtle than that? Please don't bash me for my convictions. I'm just asking a serious question, since I would be playing with others from our congregation. I don't want to invite anyone to play a a game that might have some offensive situations arise. Thanks for your input.
 
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Travis Easton
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You could just be completely subtle the whole time, considering no one is asking every other person the question "Are you the traitor?"

 
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M C
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There's an interesting discussion of this topic in the following thread:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/763041
 
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Paul Sauberer
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If lying is out for you, then Shadows Over Camelot with the traitor is a game you should avoid.
 
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Eric Hautemont
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I would qualify this: Winning as a traitor by lying through omission (ie not mentionning things you're not specifically asked about) or through induction (ie not correcting people when they read something else than what you actually said, ie hearing what they want to hear rather than what you say) is one of the most satisfying ways to play the Traitor.

Playing this way obviously requires a fair amount of deviousness and/or mischief, however. As such, it might, or might not, fit yours or anyone's specific tastes or beliefs. The best solution is probably to try and see a couple of games being played before deciding for yourself.

Eric @ DoW
 
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Barry Figgins
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A traitor is often most devastating by playing loyally, then making a betrayal at a crucial point near the endgame. Often, I won't even look at my loyalty card until 3/4 of the way through the game - that keeps me playing honestly. Once I'm in a situation where I can do some damage, I look at the card - if it's loyal, I go with that, if it's the traitor, I'm in the perfect situation to strike when nobody expected it - not even myself!

It could be a good solution for you - you don't have to lie, just keep your loyalty card secret from everyone, even yourself.
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Brian Murray
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beri wrote:
A traitor is often most devastating by playing loyally, then making a betrayal at a crucial point near the endgame. Often, I won't even look at my loyalty card until 3/4 of the way through the game - that keeps me playing honestly. Once I'm in a situation where I can do some damage, I look at the card - if it's loyal, I go with that, if it's the traitor, I'm in the perfect situation to strike when nobody expected it - not even myself!

It could be a good solution for you - you don't have to lie, just keep your loyalty card secret from everyone, even yourself.


I like this! I have yet to draw the Traitor card in the games I've played so far, but will employ this tactic.

To address the original poster, if you couldn't be deceitful even in a light hearted game that is strictly about having fun, then you should avoid this game. You will however be missing out on a fantastic game that is full of intrigue and suspense. I often play this with my wife, children, and friends and have never run into any embarrasing situations where someone's feelings were hurt. It is only a game.
 
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Olav Müller
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beri wrote:
Often, I won't even look at my loyalty card until 3/4 of the way through the game - that keeps me playing honestly.


Well it may keep you playing "honestly" but not rules-abiding. The Set-Up specifically says, that you have to peek at your card at this time, to know your allegiance ;-)

SCNR,
Olav
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Michelle Zentis
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beri wrote:
A traitor is often most devastating by playing loyally, then making a betrayal at a crucial point near the endgame. Often, I won't even look at my loyalty card until 3/4 of the way through the game - that keeps me playing honestly.


Oh, but there's some lovely evil to be wreaked at the beginning of the game, if you're the traitor. The Excalibur quest is the best opportunity to waste some outstanding cards, especially any extra Merlin you may have drawn.
 
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David Pollock
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The traitor does things that are just plain devious. Without saying a word, the traitor's whole mode of operation is a lie.

But, I would like to comment that the game can still be very enjoyable without the use of a potential traitor. My wife prefers not to have a traitor in the game, so many of my games are solely cooperative. I enjoy the paranoia associated with a potential traitor, but I still have a good time without. The rules have suggestions to make the game more challenging (start at 3 life, not 4. Start without knight powers).
 
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I have to agree that if lying or being deceitful or not telling the whole truth are issues to you then either play without loyalty cards or just play some other game.

Having said that, the traitor aspect is probably SOC's most universally liked feature so you probably should just skip this one altogether instead of playing the watered down version. I've heard some Knizia dude had made another highly regarded coop game
 
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Alex

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I've never seen anything offensive in SOC, it's just plain old fun. But the traitor definitively have to be sneaky and bad... arrrh And the knights are always suspicious of one another. While this makes for great mood and gameplay, it might not be your cup of tea.

To win in Lord of the Rings( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/823 ) you definitely need good moral values (friendship, patience, sacrifice, and even courage, cause the game can get pretty tough) just as the characters do in the story.

This game may be better for your game group, I suggest you check it out.

 
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Eric Bridge
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Yes, we played Lord of the Rings and enjoyed it for a time. The cooperation encouraged in that game really made you feel like a sacrificial hobbit putting aside everything for the good of the team. But after you beat it, and learn how to consistently do so, then it becomes less exhilerating. I suppose this a downside to any cooperative game. It sounds like there's so much to like here in SOC, but to be safe, and to prevent me from potentially writing a negative article later about what my friends and I don't like, this one will probably not be purchased. What I will try to do is find a location where someone might be playing this so I can check it out. Thanks for all your advice.
 
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Brian Newman
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I've been the traitor once. I never lied in that game; I even played my hand reasonably well (I just had horrible cards), and I won handily, something like 8 black swords to 1 white.

What would you need to lie about when you're the traitor? Just don't tell the whole truth.
 
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Barry Figgins
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As another suggestion:
Tell everyone, outright, that you're the traitor. Once you're revealed, you stay in the game, and you can actually be more dangerous. And no need to lie.

Or, if you don't want to explicitly declare your allegiance, you can go to Lancelot or the Black Knight (quests which only one player can attempt at a time), play some cards, then leave, wasting those cards (they're discarded). That's a quick way to waste 4-5 turns, and someone will probably accuse you of being a traitor.
 
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W. Eric Martin
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Mutombo wrote:
You could just be completely subtle the whole time, considering no one is asking every other person the question "Are you the traitor?"


This must be a group dynamic because we ask each other all the time -- or as is more common, we simply accuse each other over and over again: "Oh, man, you have to be the traitor to do that." "Only a traitor would make such a move." And so on.

To comment on a another player's post, the best traitor is one who's unrevealed as he or she can subtly work to throw quests to the forces of evil. Once you're revealed, you damage someone's hand each turn, but not much else.

You can play the traitor without lying, but I think that would lessen the game experience. Keep in mind, though, that you don't have to play the game with the traitor. A three- or four-player game will knights who are all loyal is still extremely tough to win. If you do get good at games like these, keep everyone loyal but start with only three life points each. You don't have to use the traitor to enjoy this game.
 
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Philip Thomas
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I have a feeling I'm opening up a whole can of worms here, but what about your Christianity makes you believe you can't act deceitfully in a game? The relevant commandment is about lying under oath, giving 'false witness'. It isn't meant to apply to board games! There are plenty of boardgames where being inexact about your position or plans improves the game enjoynent for everyone.

P.S I am not trying to insult your religous beliefs. I am also a Christian. If I'm breaking the rules of my religion, I probably ought to be made aware of this...
 
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Alex

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Quote:
But after you beat it, and learn how to consistently do so, then it becomes less exhilerating.


Well, my friends and I got to the point where we were winning almost 100% of our games, even with Sauron starting on 10. Then we got the Friends and Foes expansion and never bragged again... blush

It makes the game much more challenging and diversified, and more fun too. Can't imagine playing without it now.
 
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Rod Spade
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The traitor needs to play deceitfully. If you just want to avoid a verbal lie, the whole group could agree to not ask each other questions that the traitor would not want to answer honestly.
 
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Travis Hall
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Oh, but there's some lovely evil to be wreaked at the beginning of the game, if you're the traitor. The Excalibur quest is the best opportunity to waste some outstanding cards, especially any extra Merlin you may have drawn.

I disagree. Tossing good cards into the lake lets them get shuffled back into the deck, so that a loyal knight can draw them after the deck runs out. If you toss bad cards, and hold the good cards in your hand, the loyal knights can never get use out of them unless and until they figure out that you are the traitor.

Some of the most effective traitors I have seen have been ones who are dealt a lot of Grail cards, and simply hold them in hand the entire game.
 
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Jason Hurd
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Most people seem to enjoy this game as an alternative to Lord of the Rings because of having a possible traitor in the mix.

You wouldn't HAVE to have a traitor, however... For some, this might make the game less interesting. But, if you want a more cooperative experience, forget the traitor card and simply work together.

(It is suggested to play the first couple games without a traitor anyway to help players learn the rules and mechanics of the game.)
 
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