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Subject: Master Spy rss

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Mike Giro
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Master Spy card says after every action move Master Spy to the end of the line. Now, does this mean Master Spy will always be the last collected on a given day? Or, as we've been playing. Say you play a card to move a noble up 4 spaces, this brings Master Spy to the front of the line, now do you get to chop him or does he move to the rear immediately after you moved him to the front? Confusing.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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giroml wrote:
Master Spy card says after every action move Master Spy to the end of the line. Now, does this mean Master Spy will always be the last collected on a given day?


Usuaully, yes.

Some actions will remove him (e.g., Fled to England).
And collecting the Scarlet Pimpernel will end the day early.

Quote:
Or, as we've been playing. Say you play a card to move a noble up 4 spaces, this brings Master Spy to the front of the line, now do you get to chop him or does he move to the rear immediately after you moved him to the front?


He moves to the rear after the action, before the collection.
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Ryan Olson
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The only other way I saw him get taken was he appeared at the front of the line, and the first player chose not to play a card...
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Luca Iennaco
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Rulemonger wrote:
Some actions will remove him (e.g., Fled to England).
And collecting the Scarlet Pimpernel will end the day early.

Collecting Robespierre or playing "Scarlet Pimpernel" ends the day.

Quote:
The only other way I saw him get taken was he appeared at the front of the line, and the first player chose not to play a card...

Right!
 
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Mark McEvoy
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Of course, he can be taken 'early' if he appears at teh front of the line at the start of a day and the first player opts not to play an action card. He can also be caught early by a 'Confusion In Line' ("Choose a player. Randomly rearrange the line just before that player collects his or her next noble"). The Spy runs away after the *card* is played - but the line is rearranged AFTER that.

An interesting question - can he be caught by a "Mass Confusion" ("Put all nobles in line in the noble deck. Shuffle the noble deck and deal the same number of nobles in a new line.")? My question - if a Master Spy comes up in the redeal - does his run-to-the-end-of-the-line ability trigger? Or would he have to have been in play when the card was played in order for his ability to take effect?
 
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Tim Thorp
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He moves after the action is completed. In the above example, the nobles in line are shuffled and redistributed. Once they are redistributed, the action is done. NOW the Master Spy, no matter where he is in line, goes to the back of the line. If he wasn't in play when the action was played, his ability doesn't trigger. (I'm in dangerous territory here. I'm starting to sound like Wizards of the Coast Errata rules!) it could only trigger if he was in play to begin with. And of course, if he isn't redealt, no ability triggers.
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Mark McEvoy
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For 99% of the cards in the deck, the "action being completed" and the "card being played" are synonymous - you play the card, you take the action. I believe that "Confusion In Line" is an exceptional case - the only action you take when you play the card is the choosing of a player. You play the card, you choose a player, the card goes to the discard pile, and the Master Spy runs away. Whenever the line rearranges - whether it's later that turn or even on another player's turn - that's all fine and good, but the card play and Master Spy running-away happened long before - it happened when the card was played.


Consider the case where Player A plays the card and chooses Player C, rather than choosing him/herself. Even if player C doesn't play a card on his/her turn, are you actually going to argue that the Master Spy's ability triggers after the rearrangement on Player C's turn? There was no card played on C's turn at all! I think even the most voracious rules lawyer would have a tough time selling the case that a card was played on player C's turn. Hell, player B may very well have already Rat Break'ed the card out of the discard pile. It was played long before Player C's turn. The Spy already ran as a result of that card play.
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Rob Rob
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Yollege wrote:
The only other way I saw him get taken was he appeared at the front of the line, and the first player chose not to play a card...


IIRC: the publisher responded to this very question in an earlier forum and said basically the same thing, if a card is put down, the spy slips to the rear then the effect is taken.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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If so, can you provide a link?

Bob Martino claims that Wizards made the Spy rule very clear (play and resolve card, then move Spy) at the WotC booth at Origins 1998. They may have been mistaken (booth monkeys not always 100% accurate), or WotC may have changed their official interpretation later. But that's the only reference I can find of any WotC ruling.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.board/msg/24a76e71a...

FWIW, you may be thinking of the unofficial house rule of Bruce Allen that was also mentioned in Steffan O'Sullivan's Guillotine page as one of his prefered house rules as well:

http://www.panix.com/~sos/bc/guill.html


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Rocco D
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This came up when I played.

my interpretation is this : you play an action card and then resolve it, then you collect your noble.

so

I played the card that said "rearrange the line just before the player collects his next noble"

So I resolved the card saying that just before I collected my noble, I would rearrange the line.

the master spy says "after an action card is played" so I interpreted that as immediately after the card is played and resolved but before the collection phase.

So I moved the spy to the back of the line and then my collection phase came up and he had already been moved so I rearranged the line just before I collected my noble and lo and behold, The spy ended up in the first spot and I got him.

Everyone at the table questioned it but in the end they agreed to let me have it but was this against the rules?
 
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Sarah Thomson
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Robrob wrote:
IIRC: the publisher responded to this very question in an earlier forum and said basically the same thing, if a card is put down, the spy slips to the rear then the effect is taken.


This came up in the last game we played and caused a lot or arguments. There are two possible orders of events:

(1) Action card is put in discard pile
(2) Action is taken
(3) Spy Moves
(4) Beheading

OR
(1) Action card is put in discard pile
(2) Spy Moves
(3) Action is taken
(4) Beheading

It seems like we're getting different answers from different second-hand sources. The second seems like a very unlikely interpretation of the card, but the first makes the spy card nearly impossible to get (and maybe that's the point).
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Of course that's the point. Otherwise he'd be the Inept Spy. The only real question is how he managed to be caught and sent to the executioner's line.

Rocco D, two posts above, did it correctly.
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Patrick Bauer
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Robrob wrote:
Yollege wrote:
The only other way I saw him get taken was he appeared at the front of the line, and the first player chose not to play a card...


IIRC: the publisher responded to this very question in an earlier forum and said basically the same thing, if a card is put down, the spy slips to the rear then the effect is taken.


Do you mean: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/5140/that-ded-elusive-ma...
 
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Amund Bisgaard
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berserkley wrote:
He moves after the action is completed. In the above example, the nobles in line are shuffled and redistributed. Once they are redistributed, the action is done. NOW the Master Spy, no matter where he is in line, goes to the back of the line. If he wasn't in play when the action was played, his ability doesn't trigger. (I'm in dangerous territory here. I'm starting to sound like Wizards of the Coast Errata rules!) it could only trigger if he was in play to begin with. And of course, if he isn't redealt, no ability triggers.


You make perfect sense to me, except that I'm not too sure that he would not move after a reshuffle (even though he was not present before). There is still an "after" thing going on as he is dealt out.
 
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Amund Bisgaard
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muddgirl wrote:
Robrob wrote:
IIRC: the publisher responded to this very question in an earlier forum and said basically the same thing, if a card is put down, the spy slips to the rear then the effect is taken.


This came up in the last game we played and caused a lot or arguments. There are two possible orders of events:

(1) Action card is put in discard pile
(2) Action is taken
(3) Spy Moves
(4) Beheading

OR
(1) Action card is put in discard pile
(2) Spy Moves
(3) Action is taken
(4) Beheading

It seems like we're getting different answers from different second-hand sources. The second seems like a very unlikely interpretation of the card, but the first makes the spy card nearly impossible to get (and maybe that's the point).


The answer to this question depends on the card being played. Most cards take effect immediately, during the Play segment. Other cards take effect at a specified time later in the turn. By then, the Spy has already moved. The spy cannot move in the Collect segment, only in the Play segment, right after the card was played.
 
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Alex Bove
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It seems to me that this question has still not satisfactorily been answered. I've always maintained that the Master Spy moves after the card is played but before the action on the card is resolved. Not separating the playing of the card from the implementation of its action seems to create too many problems.

An example not yet mentioned is "Rush Job," which reads, "Choose a player. That player cannot play an action card on his or her next turn." When does the action of that card occur? If we must wait until after the action resolves to move the Spy, then the Spy must stay where he is in line until that other player's turn. That makes no sense to me (plus, it would be hard to track during the game). Or is the action the choosing of the player, after which the Spy moves? But that still seems problematic because the choosing is really only part of the action.

It seems much simpler to say that he moves after an action card is played (i.e. you can choose not to play a card to keep him where he is) but before the action resolves. He'd still be a very good spy, escaping when almost any card is played. But you wouldn't have to deal with moving him three turns after you played your card, since the action didn't resolve right away.
 
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Patrick Bauer
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From: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/5140/that-ded-elusive-ma...

Robrob wrote:
ljw74us (#10693),OK, OK, I have the official answer to the "Spy Question". I wrote WotC and asked: "The Master Spy card goes to the back of the line each time an Action Card is played. There are two possibilities: a) an Action Card is played - the Master Spy is moved to the back of the line - the Action Card is carried out or b) an Action Card is played - the Action Card is carried out - the Master Spy is moved to the back of the line"

"Steve" at Wizards of the Coast Customer Service replied:

"The answer is B, there is no way to play a card to get the master spy to the front of the line without him just going back after the cards effects."
:D


This official answer seems pretty clear, he goes to the end of the line after the action is carried out. You clearly can't do it before an action according to this ruling. I don't think it's problematic -- the action is choosing the player -- the spy goes to the rear -- the effect of the choice isn't relevant in this case.
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Mark McEvoy
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I still have no idea how Steve's answer works in relation to "Confusion In Line" (or if 'Steve' even took the specific case of "Confusion In Line" into account or was answering the general question as it applies to 'normal' cards that have their effects handled as they are played, not possibly later that turn or even on another player's turn entirely.)
 
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Alex Bove
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What Mark said.
 
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