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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Help me make up my mind...! rss

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Sandro Ruotolo
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QUOTE No. 1
"This game had me very excited and it didn’t disappoint. We all enjoyed our first couple of games and look forward to more. All in all, the game is incredibly comprehensive and can seem overwhelming to players. Even competent strategy gamers might be a little daunted by the sheer number of bits and the implications of an incredibly adaptable game. However, because the rule-set is very tight, as it should by the 3rd edition, the game flows very well from phase-to-phase and round-to-round. Furthermore, everything you need to keep track of is right there in front of you; whether it be what techs you have, the planets you own, how many resources you have, where you are in turn order, what laws have been passed, etc.
The components are beautiful and everything adheres to the wonderful theme CP and FFG have created. I can’t stress the thematic aspect enough – the game is really very rich in theme and it is expressed everywhere! Mechanics-wise; it’s about as close to a board version of a 4x game (the MOO series is often mentioned) as you can get.
TI3 is a great deep-strategy game (robust diplomacy, politics, warfare, resource management) coupled with wonderful round-by-round tactical play."

(BY DEADEYEDICK)

QUOTE No. 2 shake
"Anyway, in the end, I think the game carries a tremendous amount of baggage from the second edition, and a lot of problems are just carried over and not dealt with. The game length is still terribly long for how much GAME you get to do, how many things you get to accomplish. I feel that maybe some combination of changes might some of these things, but you would be hard pressed to make it so that the best strategy most of the time is to turtle for most of the game until the very end.
The one major overhaul they did do, the role selection mechanic and VP system, is mostly wrecked by the Imperial card and the forced selection of Imperial for pick 1 and Initiative for pick 2, makes it less than impressive.
I really wish I could like this game, but it really just felt painfully slow and boring to me while playing it, and I always felt that I couldnt attack or I would get destroyed, and that attacking really didnt get me anything anyway, I just needed to do the latest little victory thing like get 3 tech of the same color or spend 6 trade goods, and score my 2 points from Imperial as it rolls around to me.
Anyway, I expect this to get low ratings, becasue I dont like the game, and there seem to be a bunch of ravenous TI maniacs giving it entirely 10s, for what reason I cant relaly tell, but thats how I feel...."

(BY ALEXFROG)

OK, people. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but passionate one. I love SF genre in all forms - movies, TV-shows, books, and - boardgames. Well, I havent't played any SF boardgame (when I was younger, I tried do make my own SF games, and maybe I'll still do that!) and when I heard of Twilight Imperium, reaction was - ooh yeeah!
So I would like to know, is this game good as ratings are saying, or is it "too good to be true"...?
If only problem of the game is it's lenght - well, I can live with that, just need to keep my fiends from getting tired! The only big boardgame we're playing is "Axis and Allies Revised", but this game can be played in couple of sessions. So, I'm willing to learn the rules hard and keep things fast.
As for the game mechanics - OK, is the game boring or the opposite? I'm talking about players actions and interactions? Because I don't wanna gather my gaming friends and dissapoint them, lose them for this game.

About the theme - I'm a Star Wars fan, and I KNOW there are some stupid, illogical things in those films, but that donesn't keep me from enjoying them. So, TI setting is very atractive to me... (I enjoy playing "Galactic Civilizations" on PC.)

Should I buy or should I pass!?!
Thank you very much for suggestions! From both pro- and con-TI players!

 
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Ken B.
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Here are the most common pros and cons for TI.


CONS:


Game Length--can take upwards of five hours or more.

Lack of Motivation for Conflict--a lot of times conflict can be extremely detrimental to you, forcing you to go down other routes for victory.

Imperial Strategy Card--many feel it is too strong and gives too large of a reward.

Expense--the game costs $80 at your local FLGS (though cheaper online).


PROS:


Theme--indeed, the SF theme is a huge draw

Bits--tons of ships of all different sizes for your fleets.

Routes to Victory--conflict is not your only path to victory--in fact, you are encouraged to seek it other ways

Six Players--it's hard to find a big-time epic nowadays that suits five or six. And not only does it suit that number, it plays BEST with six (a real boon for larger playing groups).

Rich, strategic rules--just enough to cover all your space combat and colonization means, while still offering plenty of meat for the strategy fan.

Fun--admittedly, there are many like me who will say that the game is quite fun, though this does have a great deal to do with the quality of the group you play it with.




It's sort of like Master of Orion meets Diplomacy meets light area-control war game meets an orgy of bits.


The game gets a thumbs up from me, but pay attention to those negatives before buying. I'm sure others will be along to expound on them better. We enjoy it immensely and actively seek opportunities to get it back on the table. For a lot of people you can just take a look at it and realize it's exactly the sort of epic game you're looking for.
 
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Frank Strauss
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I think the only answer for you is BUY IT !

The only thing in the 2nd Edition that I really dislike are the ships and even those are very much better now.
I ordered my copy of TI3 yesterday and can´t await to have it in my hands.
I like SF like you do ( ok, it´s more Star Trek than Star Wars ) and TI3 really fits what I expect from a good Galactic Civilization game.
 
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Jim Patching
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My initial re-action to this game was "yeah, not bad but not brilliant", but now I absolutely love it. Time-wise it's comparable to Axis & Allies, although playing time will speed up considerably once you get used to the turn order. It's one of those games that you need to play a few times before you really get it. I also think that you need to play this game with the right group of people too. The guys in my group are all quite competitive and wouldn't miss an opportunity to meddle with someone elses plans (and not just through warfare). However, it's possible to play and win this game without much interaction between the players, but that's not really in the spirit of the game in my opinion.

I reckon this was probably my best gaming purchase of 2005
 
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Gotthard Heinrici (prev. Graf Strachwitz)
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I can just repeat Jim: PROBABLY MY BEST PURCHASE OF 2005.

I have now found a game group who is actually playing the roles of the particular race they are playing. In negotiations and trade this is a FABULOUS experience. Takes a bit of time but woth every second.

BUY IT OR MISS OUT ON A LOT!
 
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Magic Pink
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I hate almost everything about TI3. I hate the sci fi theme, I hate the war game genre (mostly), I hate the time committment...

but I really like the game anyway.zombie
 
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George Van Voorn
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The only serious reason I can think of not to buy this game is because it is expensive. If you never play with five or six people this game is not going to live and it's too much money.

Otherwise, what are you waiting for?!
 
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Ben .
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panzer-attack wrote:
.......However, it's possible to play and win this game without much interaction between the players, but that's not really in the spirit of the game in my opinion.


This is the key point as far as I am concerned.

I have played the game with a beer-drinking, having-a-laugh type atmosphere, and it's fantastic. Lots of tech racing, lots of skirmishing, political wrangling....

I have played the game with hardcore, analytical, euro-gaming min/maxers and there was very little interaction - people focused on the victory conditions. The game was over before anything interesting happened, as the methods of gaining victory points at lowest cost were usually uninteresting tasks, and plodded along in the meantime.

So I think this game really depends on the group and how the game will be played..... unfortunately it only seems to need one or two of the players to be of that second mindset to drag the whole game down.....
 
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Sandro Ruotolo
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Thanks for the replies!
Hope there are more coming, I read them carefuly! cool
 
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My advice.

First go look at the last 3 or 4 pages of rating and see what those people do not like about the game. Ignore any rating wit out comments or with comments that do not talk about gameplay. I.E. this game rocks or this game sucks....they are worthless.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


I just picked this game up (on sale at borders here in the states). I waited for a number of reasons. First the hype was too good to be true. This is the type of game that appeals to a limited number of people due to its length and stayle of play. I didnt want to shell out $80 to pick up a game I know even if liked I will only get to play a few times a year.

Also, My game group is a pick lot. We have a lot of games to choose from, so average games ted to get played once and forgotten. I know FFG has propblems with cramming a lot of cool sounding mechanics into a game that just never work well together. A game of this length that takes 2 or 3 times to "get" will never have the chance to be played that many times if the 1st time was only average. I failed horribly with A Game of Thrones in this respect. (IMHO AGoT is a below average game).

So I waited untilt he price fell. But I must admit I am excited to try this game. So what do i do about the issues raised here by those who have played it?

I know that out of the box with the rules as writtent his game will fail with my group. No interaction and the ISC card will cause people to hate this thing. I intend to assemble a collection of house rules that adress these issues and play with those from the start. Owl's (user owll) house rules look like the address a lot of the issues I see cause this game trouble.

This game is involved enough that you are going to have to learn it well yourself or with one other gammer in your group before you try abd play it for real. I am considering runnig a game where I don't play but act as a coach or a game master to help this one go over well. I will report on how successful I am sometime later this year.


I can say that this game and the producton around it is top notch. the Mini's are great and the counters/hex's are of good quality. ket hope the rules can be bent to fit our style of play.


-Malloc
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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Dear Sandro,

As a group, we are very inclined at tweaking games to make them
(hopefully) better and more enjoyable to our taste. And TI3 is no exception.
But even with the pain of going through establishing house rules, we do recommend highly that epic game to you. We love everything about it.

Owll
 
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Dane Peacock
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Alex Frog wrote:
and there seem to be a bunch of ravenous TI maniacs giving it entirely 10s, for what reason I cant relaly tell


That's me. Seems like my opinion can be catagorized and diminished in one clean stroke. Clearly, the game is not for everyone, but according to the info you have provided, I think you will love it.

Maybe it has a few niggly problems, but boring? This is one of the most involving and tense games ever made. In fact, that is why I like it so much, despite some of the minor issues.
 
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Dane Peacock
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For the record, I have been labeled a ravenous maniac or fanboy on an increasing amount of games. I am apparently too easy on games these days, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
 
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Sandro Ruotolo
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Thank you all very, very much!

I think the no.1 problem in my case with this game would be it's lenght... I can "sacrifice" half of the day, but I'm not sure about the others - well, it just means that I'll need to pursuade them more!

Besides that, I'm willing to implement some additional rules for better gameplay, if I/we find some problems.
I hope that "ISC issue" is not too much of a problem - of course, I need to try it first, and then I'm going to be able to comment it.

Thanks again, more opinions are welcome!

meeple

 
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Mikael Ölmestig
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This is not primarily a war game, it is more a diplomatic type of game, with different paths to gain victory. A game of TI:3rd ed without negotiation will surely be boring. Based on your descriptions, you will probably like it.
 
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Sandro Ruotolo
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Well I think I'll like the diplomacy thing.
For strictly fighting games there's always Axis & Allies...

One more question:
Can TI3 be played in two or more sessions? You know, play half of it, write down everything, make stacks of every player's cards etc.
Did someone try that?

Thanks! laugh
 
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Mikael Ölmestig
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I am thinking about doing it. Having the positions written down shouldn't be any problem, but the action cards and secret objectives is hidden foe everyone.
 
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Magic Pink
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If you really want to shorten the length you could drop the needed victory points down to maybe 5 or 7 and have the IRC only give one point and only if you controlled Mecatol Rex. That's just off the top of my head so who knows if it would work but it's worth a shot.
 
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Sandro Ruotolo
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Well, every player should have his "box" or something, so that nobody could look his cards and other "secret" things (if any - haven't played the game yet, I'm just reading the rules now...)

The one who owns and keeps the game should be honest and keep everything separated and regular - no looking goo.

Of course, if that's possible in TI!

Look at me - I'm discussing about a game I haven't played yet. blush
 
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Bill Stripp
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I own and have played a lot of games and this was one that I had on my xmas list. Thankfully I did not get it, but was able to sit down and play it first.

Pros:
* Lots of stuff. Between techs, planets, cards, roles, etc. There are a lot of things in this game to think about.

I give them kudos for making sure that there is a lot of stuff in this game. With lots of ships and techs, you are always thinking about how to allocate resources and what to do.

* Cool theme and some neat command mechanics.
Most elements in the game really reflect the theme. The command mechanic is quite nice as it forces you to make choices on how you are going to move forces and do things.

* Great production values
Along with the things comment, they are all well done. The art is good. Ships look neat, etc.

* Relatively straight forward rules
For a game of this size and complexity, that is a compliment. They have done a good job in streamlining things so that the game is playable, albiet long.

Cons:
* 4-8+ hour playtime. This is not a game for people who are not dedicated to gaming.
For your first play, this game takes forever. There is so much to read and people haven't figured out the imperial card yet. Once you've played a few times and realize that you need the imperial card, the game moves quicker.

* Perhaps the worst victory mechanic of any game I have played.
10 vps are needed to win. You get 2 for choosing a role?!? If you are playing with people who havn't figured this out, you will win easily. It is an artificial ending mechanism for a game that takes too long to play yet forces people to take a role every time they can.

* Combat is not a path to victory.
Like many multiplayer games, combat is a quick way to loose the game. Passive play is rewarded by making it easy for opponents to pick off your systems while you are warmongering. In other games, there is a large payoff for your risk. In this game there is not, so it makes little to no sense to do it.

* Some techs are overpowered.
Fighters are ludicrously effective, especially with some tech boosts. That detracts from some of the games cool units. Of course since you don't want to fight anyway, this is not as big of a deal.

Overall
This is a game that I desperately wanted to like. I love MOO, RFTS, and all of the 4x space computer games. However, this was not the game to do that. The problem is that you really loose out on one of the X's since there usually ends up being very small combats if there is any.

The game degenerates into who can grab the imperial role the most while completing some minor victory conditions. For a 6 hour long game, I want things to happen. I want interaction with players. I want to get entrenched in a war. None of this is a viable route to winning the game.

Sadly, with the imperial card in the game, it rarely seems like what you do makes any difference. You get that role as much as you can and hope that you draw some easy victory condititons. If you do, you win, if not you loose. Not much else in the game matters so all of that cool tech, ships and planets are so much window dressing.

Don't waste your money.
 
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Matt Epp
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The beauty of this game, is that anything you don't like about it is pretty easy to change. It's incredibly versatile. You can encourage or discourage any aspect you want.

Head over to FFG message boards to find some great ideas, although I'm sure there are some good ones here too.

I say GO for it, but do be afraid to roll your sleeves up a little to tinker. Solid game, Great theme and flavour, superb bits. You get what you pay for.
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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YES, I agree...

With House Rules that suit your taste, this game rocks. But then again, should we have to work out all those fine ideas to get the game playable?
Ah...playtesting is not the strenght of FF but their games are surely innovative and exciting...Buy it!

Owll
 
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Sandro Ruotolo
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Thanks everyone...

I definitely want to like it, and will probably buy it. "Probably" just because I'm not sure that I'll find enough people that would like to get deep into the game. cry Yes, I would play it myself, but that's obviously no fun, and, as I understand, "the more the better" applies to TI3.

I'm just a kind of person for this epic SF games... And this is really the only one that can be described in that way, right?

P.S. Sorry if I'm boring you...

 
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Marcel van der pol
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I dont quite agree that Combat is NOT the way to victory. While you can win this game without ever firing a shot, if everyone is really playing to win (ie following the Initiative/Imperial Strategy choises) then you can only win by grabbing more victory points than your opponents.

Since every turn one Public Objective card is turned over, you can start scoring them from turn 1 onwards. In effect, there is a RACE going on to grab the Public objectives before the rest. Even running behind for a single turn can cost you this game.

Since most of the Secret objectives are about Mecatol Rex, you can be damn sure that Mecatol Rex will change hands plenty and often.
 
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Nate Merchant
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Caveat emptor, Sandro!

We are all of us waiting for the next great space empire game. But don't be fooled by all the wishful thinking going on in this thread. It makes me wonder if these "BUY IT NOW!" chaps had actually played the game. Also, be careful when you hear people talk about how the rules can be tinkered with oh so easily. That often means that the rules MUST be tinkered with to achieve coherent gameplay.

Also, there are some TI3 space combat apologists in this thread who surely know how mind-numbingly boring the combat, especially with huge fleets, can actually be. Their perennial dodge is "Well, it isn't a space combat game!" Oh, no? Look at all the pretty bits and all the race bonuses for different sorts of ships. The problem, as has been mentioned earlier, is that attacking is usually a death sentence, and in a game which revolves around conquering, that's a huge problem.

I must say that I thought Petersen's TI2 was an interesting though not ultimately brilliant take on the whole space conquest/conquer genre. I had really hoped that he would have polished the game, refined it, and streamlined it for the new edition. Well, he did the opposite. There is way too much crap in TI3, but that doesn't stop the fanboys from crowing, "There's diplomacy and trading and battles and everything!" While that's true, these traits aren't implemented in anything near an elegant manner and that, my friends, is what accounts for the hideously long play times. NOT diplomatic negotiations, battle plans, or trading talks.

All that said, if you can get it for cheap, why not? Your group may like it, and it may see some play now and again. But there are far, far better games of this sort out there, although admittedly not always strong on the space suit. Nexus Ops, for one. Dune, for another. Risk 2210, if you like Risk games. Cosmic Encounter. My point, Sandro, is that not only are these games less expensive, but they are better designed, and you can finish one in a quarter of the time that TI3 takes with more payoff. No, if you MUST have all your Event, Action, and Planet cards, your Trade counters, War Suns, tech cards and all the rest to make you feel like you're playing the great space conquest game, go for it. Otherwise, save your money, your sanity, and your time. And someday, a real space exploration/conquest classic will emerge. Patience.
 
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