Recommend
12 
 Thumb up
 Hide
263 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [11] | 

GMT Games» Forums » General

Subject: Why pre-Order from GMT? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ryan Olson
United States
Auburn
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You got 3 bonus scenarios that the B&B people (supposedly) won't get.

Plus you have your copy now. So you have been playing it for a bit.

Also, you helped get the game produced in the first place. You did your part to assure others can get it from B&B .

And you are guaranteed a game from GMT. Online may sell out fast...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan
United States
Maitland
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think that people are going to ask this question more and more often in the future. Waiting to order from online discounters lets prospective purchasers wait to see what the early reviews say, and it's often as expensive or slightly less expensive then P500ing a game.

The best reasons GMT can offer for ordering early are: you help to get a game you think looks good get published, and, sometimes you get bonus material you wouldn't get otherwise. I think focusing on the bonus material a little more would be a good idea. For example, the upcomming Fast Action Battle: Bulge has a bonus scenario included if you pre-order it, and I know that's one of the reasons I did so.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iain K
United States
Arvada
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Good points, in fact a couple etailers consistently price GMT titles under the P500 prices.

What I like about the system is that it lets you express a vote of confidence in themes and designs that you want to see published.

But in my opinion the fact that 500 preorders doesn't trigger the production run anymore is a bit hokie. I mean, you want profit? Then assume some risk.

Personally, I've yet to see any GMT title that sounds so interesting that I have promised to buy it. I'll wait for the reviews, to play it at my FLGS if possible and then I'll buy it from them. Call me crazy, but if it's a game I enjoy once I've played it, I'll pay 20 bucks more then the P500 plus my neighborhood's sales tax.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin McPartland
United States
Jessup
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
Oliver Hazard Perry leader counter from Amateurs, To Arms! by Clash of Arms Games.
badge
Warrior Band counter for Conquest of Paradise by GMT Games.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Also, you helped get the game produced in the first place.


This is the most important reason. GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order; the P500 system is the only way that a small hobby game publishing house can keep from going under. Conquest of Paradise would not be published if over five hundred people had not pre-ordered it. And now, it will take a long time before it's published if we don't get a few hundred more pre-orders.

I like to ask people to please consider pre-ordering the game, if you'd consider buying it on-line after it's published. True, you don't get to see pictures of the final graphics. And, you don't have as many reviews to read. (But there are some: see the Session Reports area at the game's page here on BGG.) But it's your way to help get a unique game published!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Paul
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The primary reason to preorder from GMT is to make sure that the games you want to see published get published.

P500 means GMT won't print the game unless 500 people preorder it. There are some exceptions, and usually the game will not go into production until it reaches ~700 preorders.

This does not include preorders from online retailers. Essentially, GMT uses the P500 system in two ways.

1. It serves as a litmus test for what gamers really want
2. By charging credit cards as the game goes into production, it improves their cashflow (no need to borrow money to produce the game)

So, if everyone waits for others to preorder the game - it will be dropped from the list. And will not be produced. I have a lot of GMT games. Some I preordered, others I was on the fence and waited for them to come out and see the intial reviews. For some, I was glad I waited - cause it turned out the game was not really what I was looking for. For others, I kicked myself for not preordering - and missing out on getting the game that much earlier :-)

My net cost was about the same in both cases - but I helped get the games I really wanted published.

Make sense?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Stimson
United States
Menomonee Falls
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have plenty of GMT games but refuse to preorder from them. I always buy from a local FLGS that sells to me for less than the P500 price. But that isn't the entire reason why I refuse to preorder.

Let me start by saying that GMT is the best wargame producer in the market, but they are certainly not perfect. In fact it appears to me they are slipping down a notch in quality. Their products are frequently released with egregous errors, ommisions, and what seems to be no play testing. The good thing is that they usually get these things fixed over time.

My most hated thing is thier program called "living rules". To me this strategy allows them to release crap onto the market and let the wargamers do the real work. I'm sorry but I don't want to waste my time playtesting a game, that is what GMT should be doing.

I'll frequently wait 6 months after a game comes out, order from my local FLGS, go online and download the "living rules" and enjoy thier games.

If I were relatively confident I would recieve a sound product from day 1 I would probably preorder a few games. In fact I peruse their P-500 list regularly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Stimson
United States
Menomonee Falls
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TnT! wrote:
The primary reason to preorder from GMT is to make sure that the games you want to see published get published.

Make sense?


GMT will sell practically anything they decide to produce. The preorder system does not insure good games get made, the preorder system only gaurentees that a percentage of the the initial print run will sell. The preorder system assures us that games about popular topics get made before less popular topics.

I would suggest that there is no reason these same objectives cannot be met with alternate methods. The preorder system is effectively acting as the market research arm of GMT. I believe GMT already knows mostly what people want, and could get by without the preorder system completely.

I don't blaim them for wanting to use the preorder system, they have it good this way. Right now if they make a crappy crap piece of junk, they know at least some are sold.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Glenn Pruitt
United States
waxhaw
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yet another reason to P500 a game is that GMT has for the past few years extended special deals to P500 customers at the end of each year. I think it was something like half off of 1 or 2 games in their catalog if you had P500 ordered a game in the past year. So even from a pure monetary sense, it does pay to pre-order.

But the best reason is because if nobody pre-ordered, the games would not get produced. It's like voting - if you don't vote - don't complain about the politicians. If you are an avid gamer, you should be involved in the pre-order process. Otherwise, don't complain about what gets produced.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Iain K
United States
Arvada
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Kudos Kevin, Conquest of Paradise is the only GMT title I've seriously considered preordering, and I look forward to it's release. Yet the fact remains, I don't anticipate it's release enough to pay before I play. I'm not sure any theme, design or mechanic will ever overcome my frugality.

As for your comment:

"GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order; the P500 system is the only way that a small hobby game publishing house can keep from going under."

Preordering systems aren't the *only* way small publishing houses can survive, but I suspect they are one of the best if you can generate interest in the games before the decision to go into production. For example, by being active here on the Geek Of course, you've got to create good concepts, games people want to buy, I think the beauty of P500 is that it let's you see what concepts people want to buy.

Makes you wonder, if Avalon Hill (*The* Avalon Hill) had held on another 8 years, would the internet and preorder systems have saved it? How many of us would have preorder Hannibal?

I've built a successful professional practice, and I wish *I* would have had a preordering system to use as loan collateral and an income stream prior to delivery of goods

As a side note, what do brick-and-mortar stores think of all of this? Don't preorder systems represent lost sales? Of course, if the game is never released - there's no sale.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Maple Ridge
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KMcPartland wrote:
GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order

I doubt that very much.

GMT would still exist. They just wouldn't publish as many games.

Which could be seen as a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view:

Good thing: games more thought out, more complete, more attractive to a wider audeince.

Bad thing: fewer games, and less likelihood of a titles about more obscure battles.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Moody
United States
Edmond
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The "500" order target is the goal to reach where GMT can commit to a design, sign a contract with the designer, get artwork going, assign a developer if one doesn't exist yet, etc.

As preorder sales continue to come in, they can get a better gauge for how solid sales orders will be once the preorderers have received their copies.

So, if preorder sales continue to roll in strongly before it's time to publish, they'll print a bit more than usual.

If preorder sales slow to a trickle before the game goes to the publishers, it serves as a warning for them to produce fewer copies than normal so that they won't have to dump excess stock in a sale or have it sit around for years unsold.

It's not a perfect means, but it's what I would do. Of course, the fact that the priciples of GMT have had to throw their own money into the company not that long ago to keep it solvent (including second mortgages, etc) means that they probably have a much greater sense of risk-analysis in this field than we do.

The news that they can sell plenty of whatever they produce will be good news to them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm. I see precious few GMT titles being stocked here in the UK. I'm not sure I would get some of them at all if they weren't available for preorder. Not everyone lives in the USA with its amazing online discounters.meeple
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Morris
United States
Raytown
Missouri
flag msg tools
2nd, 6th and 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana, 24th Michigan
badge
24th Michigan Monument Gettysburg Pa
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
stayman wrote:

My most hated thing is thier program called "living rules". To me this strategy allows them to release crap onto the market and let the wargamers do the real work. I'm sorry but I don't want to waste my time playtesting a game, that is what GMT should be doing.


Living rules are not something GMT should be criticized for but congratulated on. It is something that more game companies should do as well. No game is ever perfect but GMT unlike so many other game companies actually puts in the effort to help get rules corrections into the hands of players.

I doubt there has ever been a game published that didn't have a few errors. I remember very well how hard it often was to get copies of the errata from game companies in the pre-internet days. Remember the General magazine from Avalon Hill? Every issue had errata for their games.

I give GMT high marks for putting forth the effort to get out to people copies of the errata and updated rules for it's games. Not all companies will do that. Hasbro for example released House on haunted Hill in what could only be described as a mess. The designer went to a great deal of effort to correct the many problems including three seperate FAQs sheets. Hasbro wouldn't do a think to help and even when the designer wrote up new corrected rules would not publish them on their website. I'm thankful that GMT goes the extra mile the way it does.

As to the charge that GMT doesn't play test it's games well enough. I have seen the effort put in on playtesting several of their games and trust me when I tell you, their games are well playtested.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Morris
United States
Raytown
Missouri
flag msg tools
2nd, 6th and 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana, 24th Michigan
badge
24th Michigan Monument Gettysburg Pa
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You are much in error Hunga and Michael is much correct when he says that GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order. If not for the P500 system GMT would have gone bankrupt about 5 years ago. 2000 was a very rough year for them with a number of games that did not sell well after printing. It was only through the creation and success of the P500 system that GMT was able to recover financially to where they are today.

Hungadunga wrote:
KMcPartland wrote:
GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order

I doubt that very much.

GMT would still exist. They just wouldn't publish as many games.

Which could be seen as a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view:

Good thing: games more thought out, more complete, more attractive to a wider audeince.

Bad thing: fewer games, and less likelihood of a titles about more obscure battles.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Morris
United States
Raytown
Missouri
flag msg tools
2nd, 6th and 7th Wisconsin, 19th Indiana, 24th Michigan
badge
24th Michigan Monument Gettysburg Pa
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Unfortunately that use to be the view at GMT in the late 90s and that is the view that drove them to near bankruptcy about 5 or 6 years ago. This idea that GMT can sell practically anything they decide to produce is simply not true. The market is to tight and the wargaming area of the gaming market is a niche hobby inside a niche hobby.

The creation of the P500 system saved GMT. That is a fact. It has since been copied by several other companies. I am sure if you have a better system GMT would be glad to use it but right now P500 works for them and works well. Without it we wouldn't have a GMT Games company.

stayman wrote:

GMT will sell practically anything they decide to produce. The preorder system does not insure good games get made, the preorder system only gaurentees that a percentage of the the initial print run will sell. The preorder system assures us that games about popular topics get made before less popular topics.

I would suggest that there is no reason these same objectives cannot be met with alternate methods. The preorder system is effectively acting as the market research arm of GMT. I believe GMT already knows mostly what people want, and could get by without the preorder system completely.

I don't blaim them for wanting to use the preorder system, they have it good this way. Right now if they make a crappy crap piece of junk, they know at least some are sold.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Buse
United States
Indianapolis
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Living rules are not something GMT should be criticized for but congratulated on.


Yes. It seems odd to say that GMT produces flawed games because of the availability of Living Rules. If not for Living Rules, good games initially produced with bad rules, such as The Napoleonic Wars and Grand Illusion, would remain unplayed. It would be great if the rules were perfect out of the box, but the availability of Living Rules is not the cause of bad rules, but part of the solution.

If you don't feel comfortable pre-ordering through the P500 program, don't do it. But if enough people make the same calculation, the game won't get produced.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Stimson
United States
Menomonee Falls
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mrbeankc wrote:
stayman wrote:

My most hated thing is thier program called "living rules". To me this strategy allows them to release crap onto the market and let the wargamers do the real work. I'm sorry but I don't want to waste my time playtesting a game, that is what GMT should be doing.


Living rules are not something GMT should be criticized for but congratulated on. It is something that more game companies should do as well. No game is ever perfect but GMT unlike so many other game companies actually puts in the effort to help get rules corrections into the hands of players.

I doubt there has ever been a game published that didn't have a few errors. I remember very well how hard it often was to get copies of the errata from game companies in the pre-internet days. Remember the General magazine from Avalon Hill? Every issue had errata for their games.

I give GMT high marks for putting forth the effort to get out to people copies of the errata and updated rules for it's games. Not all companies will do that. Hasbro for example released House on haunted Hill in what could only be described as a mess. The designer went to a great deal of effort to correct the many problems including three seperate FAQs sheets. Hasbro wouldn't do a think to help and even when the designer wrote up new corrected rules would not publish them on their website. I'm thankful that GMT goes the extra mile the way it does.

As to the charge that GMT doesn't play test it's games well enough. I have seen the effort put in on playtesting several of their games and trust me when I tell you, their games are well playtested.





I'm not saying that I don't appreciate the fact that they follow up on their games, I certainly think GMT is the best wargame publisher in existence. My concern is that there is a line when if comes to errata. A few FAQs are one one thing. My thought is that the living rules have become a crutch, enabling them to produce games without the care in producing the rulebook correctly the first time. Again GMT is a good company and I buy many many of there titles, I'd just like to see them do a better job up front before I'm gonna preorder any game.

FYI, I for some reason don't have this issue with Columbia and preorder practically all thier games. This is despite there incessant need to revise rulebooks time after time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Nesbitt
Canada
Ajax
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I preorder from GMT all the time (99% of my GMT titles are bought that way). I still believe that there is more that they can do for their preorder customers though, given that we are collectively assuming almost all the risk of the print run whereas GMT does little more than "pull the trigger". Obviously I'm over simplifying here to make a point, but financially speaking, this is essentially the case.

750 orders are enough to pay for the full print run, so even if they didn't sell a game from the other couple thousand that they print, they would be no worse off other than a full warehouse. Pre-order customers, on the other hand, have to hope that the game is good and risk their own money on that possibility. If the game is a stinker, then we all collectively get screwed; everyone but GMT, that is.

Make no mistake: I am going to remain a preorder customer anyways. I feel that they have treated me fairly, and with an interest in producing good quality games rather than just a lot of mediocre ones. Add in the fact that they are one of many little guys, and I think it is money that is well spent.

They could do more for customers like me though. Maybe every time I pre-order AND take delivery of said GMT product, I build up a credit. Once X amount of credit has been obtained, I get a free pre-order on a new game. Not only does that make preorder customers happy, but it fuels the P500 program too. Of course, this "free" preorder game has to be paid for by someone, so I suggest that the wholesale price to distributors be increased by the same relevant percentage. An extra $1 per unit wouldn't hurt the retail sales aspect very much, and GMT can use the money to reward the risk-taking preorder customers. Repeat this process over and over again, and more people are going to want to preorder (etc etc...).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Franklin
United Kingdom
Braintree
Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Philip Thomas wrote:
Hmm. I see precious few GMT titles being stocked here in the UK. I'm not sure I would get some of them at all if they weren't available for preorder. Not everyone lives in the USA with its amazing online discounters.meeple


Exactly. I P500'd C&C:Ancients (my first), which came to about 35 quid, including the shipping of 5-6lbs of wood across the Atlantic. I can't even find it on sale anywhere in the UK yet, but other GMT games are between 40 and 50 quid from on-line retailers, without shipping, and filled with cardboard, not wood.

So for me, it looks like P500 works out earlier, cheaper, I get to influence which games get printed, and I get to show my support for the company.

Here I Stand, Pax Romana, Winds of Plunder and Conquest of Paradise are all waiting...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Maple Ridge
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No I'm not.

Important to remember that most game comapnies exist only because many of the principals are living on veteran's pensions. You're not going to see GMT or any other wargame company going public anytime soon!



Pre-ordering is a convenience for both the publisher and the hobbyist - nothing more. And it has it's pros and cons - occasionally insufficient playtesting being one of the cons already mentioned.

mrbeankc wrote:
You are much in error Hunga...If not for the P500 system GMT would have gone bankrupt about 5 years ago. 2000 was a very rough year for them with a number of games that did not sell well after printing. It was only through the creation and success of the P500 system that GMT was able to recover financially to where they are today.

Hungadunga wrote:
KMcPartland wrote:
GMT Games would simply not exist if people did not take the chance and pre-order

I doubt that very much.

GMT would still exist. They just wouldn't publish as many games.

Which could be seen as a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your point of view:

Good thing: games more thought out, more complete, more attractive to a wider audeince.

Bad thing: fewer games, and less likelihood of a titles about more obscure battles.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dale Stephenson
United States
Buford
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gpruitt wrote:
Yet another reason to P500 a game is that GMT has for the past few years extended special deals to P500 customers at the end of each year. I think it was something like half off of 1 or 2 games in their catalog if you had P500 ordered a game in the past year. So even from a pure monetary sense, it does pay to pre-order.


This last year was 50% of 1 or 2 games, excepting Very Low Stock games. I got Paths of Glory and Wilderness War.

Aside from bonus scenarios, sometimes there's also some bonus deals, like a big discount on Downtown for those who pre-ordered Burning Blue.

Quote:
But the best reason is because if nobody pre-ordered, the games would not get produced. It's like voting - if you don't vote - don't complain about the politicians. If you are an avid gamer, you should be involved in the pre-order process. Otherwise, don't complain about what gets produced.


A fair points. But for me the best reason is plausible deniability. When a new game shows up in the mail, I can truthfully say "I ordered that months ago." YMMV.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Cox
United States
Clemson
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
1024x768 works just fine - Don't Wide the Site!
badge
Missing old BGG
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jbuse wrote:
If not for Living Rules, good games initially produced with bad rules, such as The Napoleonic Wars and Grand Illusion, would remain unplayed.

And good games with bad rules should remain unplayed. The rules are a significant part of the game, so you can't separate them. If a company or designer can't get the rules straight before the game gets printed, then it should never be printed. Let it sit in development until they get good rules, nailed down. Who wants to be a beta-tester for a game? It should be complete when it goes out the door.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Maple Ridge
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Randy Cox wrote:
good games with bad rules should remain unplayed. The rules are a significant part of the game, so you can't separate them. If a company or designer can't get the rules straight before the game gets printed, then it should never be printed. Let it sit in development until they get good rules, nailed down. Who wants to be a beta-tester for a game? It should be complete when it goes out the door.

Welcome to wargaming in the 21st century!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Russell
United States
Clarkston
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
If a company or designer can't get the rules straight before the game gets printed, then it should never be printed.


I think rules can always be refined. No matter how much playtesting happens, I think in any game of reasonable complexity, special situations will be discovered even after extensive playtesting.

There was a rumor going around when the 1870 publishing date slipped is because of the rules. They were very well written, if you assumed the reader knew 1830. But they didn't cover some of the basic concepts. laugh

It's definitely a balancing act between sufficient and over testing.

Now, it's quite possible that some of the GMT games aren't quite ready for prime time. All of the ones that I've ordered needed clarifications to the rules rather than changes. Even without the changes tables of reasonable people were able to figure out the intent and play before the clarifications were available.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Nesbitt
Canada
Ajax
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Yet another reason to P500 a game is that GMT has for the past few years extended special deals to P500 customers at the end of each year. I think it was something like half off of 1 or 2 games in their catalog if you had P500 ordered a game in the past year. So even from a pure monetary sense, it does pay to pre-order.


Actually, this logic is flawed (as is the promotion). If GMT truly wants us to preorder all the games we want (which I do), then what is the use of offering me products from the rest of the catalog at a discount?

In other words, if I'm a long standing customer who preorders every GMT game that even remotely interests me, what other game could I possibly want? It seems to me that this reward program benefits those who pre-order only 1 game, and then sit and wait for the yearly sale. In other words, the above quote should read "Yet another reason to P500 a single GMT game..."

Shouldn't it be that GMT's best customers get the best rewards?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [11] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.