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Subject: Deck Construction rss

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Dave Kudzma
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How much worth is there in deck construction? From what little I've played, it seems to be where it's at. The base decks are good...but constructed seem like they could have even more potential.

Has anyone considered a variant of deck construction allowing 2 copies of a card? In Magic, there can be 4 copies in 60 cards....by the same math I'm thinking 2 copies for 30 wouln't be so out of line. Then again, you can't play two cards starting with the same title as 1 play in Magic.
 
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Allen Doum
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For me, that would miss the point of playing Blue Moon. the game has not been designed for that.

Examples: Imagine a double No gang for the Khind. 16 cards. Out of a deck of 30. Eight Storm cards in a Terrah deck. 26 Launch booster for the Flit. Quadruplets for the Mimix.
 
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Matthew M
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Definitely agree with Allen on this one. The game was clearly designed with such a limitation in mind. Removing that limitation would grossly unbalance the game.

-MMM
 
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Dave Kudzma
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......and your opinion on deck construction?
 
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Matthew M
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locusshifter wrote:
......and your opinion on deck construction?


Not necessary to enjoy the game, but definitely worth exploring if you're the least bit interested. There are a LOT of different builds one could try with a full card set.

-MMM
 
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Joe Stude
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I've been thinking here and there about some cards from different decks that might play interestingly together, but I'm still enjoying the consolidated decks so much that I'm in no rush to construct yet.
 
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Philip Thomas
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What interested me is that in the base game you get some cards from other races, labelled 'Pillar 25' or whatever. I wonder whether by putting all the Pillar cards in one deck, and all the Hoax in another, and so on, you would get anything interesting...
 
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Andrew Brannan
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Those are the "consolidated" decks that joejow is talking about.
 
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Joe Stude
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Exactly, and I think it IS interesting. After playing consolidated for the last month or so I have trouble going back to standard decks. All the cards just feel like they "belong" and help the deck theme. Give it a shot and see what you think.

P.S. I uploaded the consolidated deck files for CardTable into the Blue Moon files section here on BGG.
 
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Paul Ollenberger
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I had my decks consolidated, and recently switched back to pre-constructed. I don't know what it is, but after many games I like pre-constructed better.
 
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Matthew M
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Wyrenn wrote:
I had my decks consolidated, and recently switched back to pre-constructed. I don't know what it is, but after many games I like pre-constructed better.


I'm leaning this way myself, Paul. The more I've played with consolidated decks the more it has become apparent that some people are hurt more than others in doing so.

-MMM
 
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Joe Stude
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Which people do you think have been hurt more than helped?
 
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Matthew M
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Terrah:

Lose:
Flash the Incindiary (6/3) - much needed Fire power, keeps the Terrah well rounded
Mad Mike Magpie (0/0 card with icons are ignored) - flexible, particularly useful against Mimix, Khind, and Flit
Caterpillar Earth Eroder (discard 3 Earth or retreat) - obviously a potent combo with their Earth power

Get:
Catusan (1/5) - more Earth isn't that important
Bashdin (1/2 now you discard 2 cards) - again, not as good of a match for the Terrah as some of the above
Drowning Rain Storm (1/1 If I have more than 1 Storm I attract a dragon) - obviously the best of the cards brought back for the Terrah

I'd consider those lost to be two good cards and one neutral (MMM). Those gained are two neutral and one good. The Terrah become dangerously one-dimensional in consolidated play vs. pre-construct.

-MMM
 
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Ava Jarvis
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I also went back to the pre-constructed format after playing around with consolidated decks for a while. I hear that the constructed tournament-winning decks that don't use the Inquisitors resemble the pre-constructeds more often than not, which I could imagine. Although some pre-constructed assignments are probably not ideal (e.g., a strong Mimix character in the Vulca deck, but the Vulca really could do with an extra strong-in-Earth character).

As for the people and their consolidated decks, I have only played up to the Khind/Terrah as consolidated decks (not the Pillar or Aqua). As far as I can tell:

- The Hoax are stronger when consolidated. (They are just very flexible.) Or possibly they are merely stronger in relation to some other people consolidations.

- The Vulca are hurt a little bit in the Earth element, but gain it back with some nice boosters and the advantage of more control support cards.

- The Mimix are noticeably weaker. They have very few cards that disrupt the opponent in some way other than scoring large values in Earth or Fire, and cards dedicated to general enhancing of card draws in some manner are missing from the Mimix, although they do have more specific search cards---and this arguably fits them better, since you're looking for pairings, not for a group like the Khind.

- The Khind are also weaker. They lose some of their card draw support, which is almost necessary in a Khind deck due to the nature of Gangs.

- The Flit are still annoying. They don't seem adversely affected in any way, and having more of their pairing boosters in the deck is beneficial.

- The Terrah are still... impassive. They come with some very good control characters, booster, and support cards built into their people.
 
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Ava Jarvis
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locusshifter wrote:
How much worth is there in deck construction? From what little I've played, it seems to be where it's at. The base decks are good...but constructed seem like they could have even more potential.


Yup. Blue Moon's possibilities explode with deck construction, in particular when you use the Inquisitors and Emmisaries sets.

Quote:
Has anyone considered a variant of deck construction allowing 2 copies of a card? In Magic, there can be 4 copies in 60 cards....by the same math I'm thinking 2 copies for 30 wouln't be so out of line. Then again, you can't play two cards starting with the same title as 1 play in Magic.


Blue Moon was designed as a Highlander ("there can only be one (copy of a card)!" for the uninitiated) game. This makes it different from a lot of other CCGs and also affects the ebb and flow of the game; every card matters, or at least has greater potential to matter. I have always thought the Blue Moon was a great example of a game where you have to, by definition, think on your feet rather than waiting for the next copy of your bouncing 1/2 support to come by, or your next copy of the dragon douser booster.

Even with traditional CCGs like MtG, I prefer Highlander formats more often than not, or games that have "cards that matter" with copy constraints---such as Lot5R and MeCCG. Having multiple copies of cards usually means that you can afford to be lax, and that you can, with a variety of cards that do similar things and being able to copy each one of them, create decks that play almost the same each time (down to the specific card mix you will see in your hand on turns in a given range of time) in the current environment, which is what the best tournament MtG decks do.

Something like Blue Moon is very refreshing.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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I've played with all the decks, except for Flit and Aqua now. I tried them base, and consolidated.I enjoyed them all both ways, but I think the base might be the way to go (unless I build a deck).

The reason I feel that way is that it's nice to get that injection of another races' ability. It gives the deck something rare or not available to their "usual abilities" (racially speaking).

Now that I've played the decks about 4 times each, I can see multiple copies ruin a fine formula, and I might even deem it totally unnecessary to "water down" decks; as I know mutiples would also kill the uniqueness of the deck....thereby not making every card invalueable.

My only regret with this system si that I didn't invest more time trying to play it sooner.
 
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Michael Tagge
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Octavian wrote:
Wyrenn wrote:
I had my decks consolidated, and recently switched back to pre-constructed. I don't know what it is, but after many games I like pre-constructed better.


I'm leaning this way myself, Paul. The more I've played with consolidated decks the more it has become apparent that some people are hurt more than others in doing so.

-MMM


I think it is interesting that you think so. I know that some decks play better versus certain decks (i.e. in our experience a good Mimix player will beat a Pillar player hands down while a good Pillar player will whip a Khind deck). But I don't think consolidation has anything to do with it.

What we are doing is playing three games of each matchup (so one side can get more than five crystals, I think Vulca-Khind was 9-0) and reversing it to even out poor playing by one player. When we finish with all 56 games (8 decks vs. 7 other decks) we will take the average of the two games and use that as the spread.

So if Terra-Flit was 2-4 then 2-5, the goal for the Terra player would be to score three crystals (>2) and the goal for the Flit would be to score five crystals (>4.5). With enough plays and statistics it would even out.

I would be interested in getting score averages from consolidated decks (with two playthroughs by the same opponents switching) by geekmail. That way I could see how our spread matches up and possibly post the averages.

At least we would have some evidence instead of people saying that one deck is better than another.
 
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Joe Stude
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I was talking about doing this in another post. Would love to get in on it. Jeffk and I play frequently enough that we could kick some matches out pretty quickly.

What would be even more interesting is for the folks that enjoy playing the preconstructed decks more to do the same and see if the results change significantly.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I agree with the Pillar/Khind hypothesis. Jeffk has mentioned he and his wife play that matchup all the time and are relatively even, and I just won a game with Khind in that same matchup just the other day. Be interesting to really test it out though.
 
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Michael Tagge
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I was just picking pillar/khind as trying to find something off the top of my head that was weak against pillar (they might actually be the weakest, who knows).

As for the stats, I will put up statistics tomorrow when I bring our scoresheet from home into work. Would people prefer a Geeklist or a Blue Moon Forum? Tomorrow we should finally have some evidence for weakest/strongest decks.
 
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Matthew M
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mtagge wrote:

As for the stats, I will put up statistics tomorrow when I bring our scoresheet from home into work. Would people prefer a Geeklist or a Blue Moon Forum?


I think the General Forum, or possibly Strategy Forum, is the most appropriate. Geek Lists might slip the attention of other Blue Moon players and are more difficult to develop coherent discussion on.

-MMM
 
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