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Age of Napoleon» Forums » Rules

Subject: Why is Joseph a Coalition card? rss

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Erin Hawley
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My husband and I have looked over the Living Rules (albeit quickly), and the description of the "Joseph" card is still as follows:

"Joseph (Diplomacy): A major country of your choice becomes a French dominion, but only if it already is a French ally and never was a French dominion. This card can only be played by the Coalition player."

In what possible situation would a Coalition player want to play this card??? Shouldn't this be a French player card? Are we missing something entirely, or was this a misprint?

Thanks!
 
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Pat H
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One possibile advantage to the Coalition player is that once the major country is a French dominion, it would become vulnerable to insurrection?
 
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Erin Hawley
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Right, I suppose that's possible...but I just don't see too many scenarios where losing an entire _major_ country would be helpful, especially if you had any troops deployed from there. Perhaps this ties into a historical event we're not aware of?
 
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Philip Thomas
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Joseph Bonaparte became King of Spain in 1808, turfing out the previous King of Spain who was Napoleon's ally anyway. (Hope this is right, am a little rusty on the early 19th century)

I guess this is the event we are tallking about.As the other poster noted, insurrection was what followed!
 
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Pat H
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I think the coalition player can only play "Joseph" if the country is already a French Ally, so they wouldn't actually "loose" a country playing this card.

I think the idea would be to use it on a French Ally and then follow it up with an insurrection? Insurrections cannot be played on a French Allies. Although the coalition player would no longer be able to play diplomacy cards on the dominion, for some countries (e.g. Spain) the coaltion player might prefer to have an insurrection in the country, rather than having the opportunity for future diplomacy.

I've played this game a few times, but don't recall the card being played. I've seen the French player on a few occasions play a different card to create a dominion out of detachable countries (forget which card it is).

Might be worth checking out ComsimWorld to see if there has been any discussion on this.
 
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Erin Hawley
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Ah-hah; I figured it was Napoleon's brother, but I didn't recall that King of Spain part (and I shall now look sheepish...) That would certainly explain the pattern leading into insurrection!

You're right about the French Ally part, too, which I forgot in my second post--you couldn't lose troops, but it would (at least temporarily) increase the French player's card draw on the next round, if the insurrection wasn't forthcoming. We haven't played the longer scenarios yet, and it still seems like a risky move on the Coalition players' part. In real play, maybe it won't be as severe as I'm imagining--we'll give it a try when it comes up.

Renaud, if you see this and want to comment/confirm, please do! Thanks to all.
 
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Renaud Verlaque
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Hello,

Because of he insurrection risk, the French player is unlikely to turn a major country into a French dominion as Napoleon did by installing his brother on the throne of Spain. This card makes it possible, but it's clearly a play favorable to the Coalition, and so it's a Coalition only card.

Renaud
 
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Erin Hawley
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Thank you!
 
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Richard Young
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I remember having trouble with this card also - I was sure it must have been a typo when I first saw it. But after hearing from Renaud himself on the subject I learned it was deliberate. I guess I have to take Renaud's point as to why he made it a coalition only playable card, as it does seem to favor the coalition more than the French, and it's his game after all.

But as it was Napoleon's own doing to install his brother as monarch (a move which was more an indication of the family pressures he had to endure than the application of good judgement), I always thought the card should have been playable by either side (and in my games that is how it is treated). Napoleon appears(?) to have considered the risk - why shouldn't we all have that opportunity if playing France? On balance, it may not be a smart move but there may be circumstances where the French player considers the immunity to diplomacy cards outweighs the risk of insurrection. Why not let the French player pooch it all over again if that's what he wants to do?

If I understand Renaud correctly, he is saying in effect: Here is an historical event that was initiated by the French (Napoleon himself actually - the character you are playing if you are taking that side in the game), but because it was so stupid, I'm not letting it happen in this game the way it happened historically. Interesting...
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Maybe Napoleon didn't realise that changing from Ally to Dominion made it vulnerable to insurrection.
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Richard Young
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Yes, an object lesson in the need to read and understand the rules; and, when in doubt, ask...
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Nappy couldn't download the living rules.
 
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Robert Markley
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Renaud Verlaque wrote:
Hello,

Because of he insurrection risk, the French player is unlikely to turn a major country into a French dominion as Napoleon did by installing his brother on the throne of Spain. This card makes it possible, but it's clearly a play favorable to the Coalition, and so it's a Coalition only card.

Renaud



Long time passed to join this thread but I've just come back to the game:

I follow your argument about the potential to start insurrections once a country is a dominion which obviously is designed to simulate the actual peninsular scenario. Therefore I can see why a Coalition player might want to play Joseph card. However surely the French player might also want to play it to prevent Spain tipping into the coalition via diplomacy.

Also if your argument/reasoning applied then why does it not also apply to the Napoleonic Dynasty Card too? This effectively does the same thing as Joseph?

many thanks
Rob
 
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Martin Cassel
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As the French, you want minor countries to be French Dominions, because then there are only two cards in the deck that can affect them, and the country abandoning you to become neutral vs. it startig an insurrection are kind of the same (you go there with an army and occupy it).

On the contrary, you don't want a major country to be a French Dominion, because an insurrection in a major country is a catastrophe. In fact, I have never seen the French put down an insurrection in a major country.

Ideally, as the Coalition player, you want to play Joseph when you already have an insurrection card in hand (or you can get it out of the discard pile with Napoleonica).
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