Kelly North Adams
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I've had a little back and forth with one of the BGG admins over PM and I'm really curious about other peoples opinions on this matter.

I posted a review on the newly released much anticipated iOS Agricola last night. I didn't really know where to post it because it is a review, and it's on Agricola, a different medium, but still a board game nonetheless. So I submitted it for posting in reviews. It went live last night and by this morning I was happy to find everyone was enjoying reading it. It was getting lots of thumbs and positive commentary and questions. Though I appreciate the kind words and extra geek gold, I don't review games for the thumbs or the ego boost. I review games because I like to. I like to inform my fellow gamers about games and my thoughts on them because i'm lucky enough to have some extra time to do so. And especially for those who appreciate feedback before making the money plunge in a new game.

Anyway, today my article disappeared from the reviews list and was sent to VGG. ( http://videogamegeek.com/thread/991394/ios-review-board-game...)

I was informed the reasoning was because if someone has issues with glitches, or questions about iconography used in the game, such topics would be of no interest to someone researching the physical board game.

Makes sense.

The problem is, do board gamers actually go to VGG? I don't. When I think "Video Games" I think first person shooter, third person real time strategy game, massively multi-player platform game, or even arcade games, but not sit down 2-6 player board games. I didn't even know there was an iOS board game section on VGG.

If you go to VGG, and select Browse and go to Genre's they have 44 Genre's. One of of which is a category called "Classic Games." Here, ALL iOS board games are collected into one category. On BGG, board games have 81 different categories.

Board games are blowing up on iOS, because it's a convenient way to bring your game collection with you everywhere, in your purse or your pocket. This market is just starting to get tapped and it's just going to keep getting bigger. iOS games are obviously not a replacement for board games, but they sure are a nice addition.

Though my game is #1 on the VGG hot list, I received all discussion and support on my article on BGG, and have gotten no interaction whatsoever since posted on VGG early today, which shows board gamers do not go to VGG for their board game news.

Additionally, iOS is some of the most popular news on BGG. It's HOT all the time. As I write this it holds the hottest spots on the news list.


The problem is, since only admin members can post about iOS on the BGG, it's kin of a a monopoly. Us BGG users cannot get our thoughts and opinions out there about iOS board games unless we write a blog about it. And that gets buried away within 5 minutes. You'll also notice, none of this iOS board game news is ever posted to VGG either...

I mainly PM'd the BGG admin to discuss the problem of Board gamers not being able to write reviews and talk about iOS board games on BGG. I sent him a few things in the email but the main takeaway being "iOS board games are becoming so popular, I really think there should be a place for them specifically on the BGG homepage too."

Thoughts?
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Paul DeStefano
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If it appears on a screen it is video. What it shows does not matter. A movie of a concert is a movie not a concert. Video screen means video game.
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Bryan Thunkd
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I think the distinction between board game and video game is blurred by these apps. Sure, some aspects are unique to the implementation but there are other areas, such as strategy, that apply to both sides.

I think there should be cross-portal pages for these where you can see everything related to the game. Maybe there could be sub forums for 'video game' and 'board game'.
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Sienne Laws
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VGG is a withered stump that is only going to decay further over time. It will never feature the same in-depth content as the BGG part of the site, certainly isn't anywhere near as visited, and will most likely eventually be seen as a waste of resources and discontinued so as not to detract from and dilute the site as a whole.

Board games (physical and digital) should all be kept over on this side in some capacity, but you're looking at another year or so of arguments before this inevitably happens.
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Remedy
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Geosphere wrote:
If it appears on a screen it is video. What it shows does not matter. A movie of a concert is a movie not a concert. Video screen means video game.



I think I have to disagree. The medium of delivery does not change to information delivered. If a blind person listens to an audio book, it is still a book even though they are not reading it.

If a game was written on vellum, would it have to be posted to scrollgamegeek? I think not.
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I think iOS ports of board games are board games. In my mind, it's just another edition.

Early editions of Agricola had cubes for the animals.
Later editions had animeeples.
the iOS edition has animanimeeples (animated animeeples).

I think that if a "video game" port of a board game is mechanically the same, it's just a board game using a different medium to convey the information of the game to the player.
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As a general rule the ios game will be compared to the boardgame. Since the board game is on BGG I think it should be on this site as well as the other site.

I am a boardgamer. I have not nor will I ever go to VGG because 99% of the information there does not apply to me. If I am interested in buying a game for my ios device I will read reviews of the game on BGG and then decide if I want to buy the app. A discussion about the app and the differences between the ios and board game is valuable to me.

Perfect example is Survive. I played the board game, purchased the board game, and researched the ios app. Based on the reviews and comparisons to the board game I was able to make an informed decision that the implementation was sub par and have not purchased the ios version.

If the original was a board game and it is getting ios treatment keep it here.

Just my two cents
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Remedy1 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
If it appears on a screen it is video. What it shows does not matter. A movie of a concert is a movie not a concert. Video screen means video game.



I think I have to disagree. The medium of delivery does not change to information delivered. If a blind person listens to an audio book, it is still a book even though they are not reading it.


I suppose there is no such thing as a video game than?

If I am playing a Gran Turismo, I suppose it ought to belong on auto-enthusiast geek? Or if I'm playing Madden NFL 13 it ought be discussed on NFL geek?

Not so.

The subject matter of a game does not determine it's medium.

Video games belong on VGG.

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Metrognome wrote:
VGG is a withered stump that is only going to decay further over time. It will never feature the same in-depth content as the BGG part of the site, certainly isn't anywhere near as visited, and will most likely eventually be seen as a waste of resources and discontinued so as not to detract from and dilute the site as a whole.


I guess it all depends on how you look at it.

I find VGG to be an enjoyable community of video gamers who are capable of discussing games in a mature and respectable manner.
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Paul Whitaker
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I play video games. And I play board games on a computational device with a visual interface.

There is a clear distinction, even if it is only in my brain.
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I have no need nor interest in going to VGG so very much agree that iOS board game news & reviews, questions even, belongs here too ..

(imho) It should be just treated like a different edition ..

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There definitely needs to be something on BGG relating to the iOS, computer, or Android apps. The idea of just having a linked item or edition is a great one. If we don't want information on these electronic editions on BGG, then we probably should get rid of the iOS links that appear on the physical version's pages.
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Len
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This is a problem.

It is a "video" game! .....um....right? The goal should be, make it easier for everyone to find information about something. Two choices:

- Option one: People who like and care about Agricola, WILL GO TO THE AGRICOLA BOARD GAME FORUM, when looking for info on the iOS version. So, in this option, posting in the board game forum makes it easier for most people to find it (this is why we categorize things, right?)

Downside: Insufferable ninnies who are not fans of non-cardboard implementations of board games will have to suffer surfing through the awful posts about the iOS version of this BOARD GAME.

- Option two: Post this in a video game forum. So, we meet the definition of a "video game". Great! But no one will see your review. That is, while technically correct, few people will looking for info on the virtual iOS implementation of this BOARD GAME will visit a VIDEO GAME forum. Sure, technically correct, but....

DOWNSIDE: Few will see your review,

....but "purists" who are offended some people like iOS versions of BOARD GAMES won't have to even see posts about iOS versions of board games.

So, if you want people to like your site, and find info they are looking for....I will side one on those who want to make information easier and more intuitive to find it, rather than lean on semantics. Even if some people on the board game forum have to avoid some posts about the iOS implementation of said board game.


EDIT: spelling
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Len
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Remedy1 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
If it appears on a screen it is video. What it shows does not matter. A movie of a concert is a movie not a concert. Video screen means video game.



I think I have to disagree. The medium of delivery does not change to information delivered. If a blind person listens to an audio book, it is still a book even though they are not reading it.

If a game was written on vellum, would it have to be posted to scrollgamegeek? I think not.


Good point...can I join a book club and discuss a book if I read it on my kindle?

According to BGG's philosophy, no. It was not read on paper.
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Joel Eddy
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If you are going to get rid of information about iOS games, then get rid of the iOS Blog that's listed in BGG's own news section!

As a matter of fact. Don't. Leave it. I find it interesting, and so do THOUSANDS of others. I'd rather play a board game than an iOS game. But damned if Pass and Play TtR: Europe with my wife doesn't feel pretty close to the damn board game. And hey... we can play it on a plane... And hey... other people that LOVE board games should be able to come to a site and find info on it.

Lots of people have interest in the iOS stuff.

Just like lots of people have interest in the constant free Kickstarter advertising that infests this site.

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Fluffy James wrote:
Games played on computers, tablets, smartphones and other digital media aren't boardgames.

I don't care where they should be listed and discussed as long as they don't clutter BoardGameGeek.



And phone calls made on cell phones must be 'cell phone calls', because everyone knows that real phones have to have cords and must be plugged into the wall...

If main mechanic of a game is a 'board' that displays the current game state, it is a board game whether or not it is physical cardboard or a virtual representation.

And as for clutter, iOS games are already being discussed openly on BGG in the news section.
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This irritates the more I think about it.

People often request games via VASSAL in the various game forums. That's online games... not "board" games. Should we ban such posts too?

There are freaking links to the iOS app ON each page... put their by BGG.

Mixed messages.... also it's incorrect.
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Mark Johnson
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It is my belief that in our account options we should be able to turn on/off digital board games. If a person turns it on, images/videos from the VGG site of digital board game adaptations will display under BGG. If turned on, all forum posts for the digital game will be included on the BGG site. There will now be a new clickable filter (such as news, rules, etc) entitled 'digital' under the game page to allow you to filter for those specifically. Turning digital games off in your account options would now hide the news blogs involving android and iOS.

I think most people would be happy with an option like this.
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Fluffy James wrote:
Games played on computers, tablets, smartphones and other digital media aren't boardgames.


Boardgames played on computers, tablets, smartphones and other digital media certainly are boardgames, however, which is the important thing.
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Remedy
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frumpish wrote:
Remedy1 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
If it appears on a screen it is video. What it shows does not matter. A movie of a concert is a movie not a concert. Video screen means video game.



I think I have to disagree. The medium of delivery does not change to information delivered. If a blind person listens to an audio book, it is still a book even though they are not reading it.


I suppose there is no such thing as a video game than?

If I am playing a Gran Turismo, I suppose it ought to belong on auto-enthusiast geek? Or if I'm playing Madden NFL 13 it ought be discussed on NFL geek?

Not so.

The subject matter of a game does not determine it's medium.

Video games belong on VGG.



Wow, you think my point was that all genres of games should be on different sites, really? Maybe when you quoted me you should have included the next couple sentences - there were only two more. I clearly mock that idea.

If the game uses a board to represent the current state of play, it is a board game.
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Len
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eekamouse wrote:
This irritates the more I think about it.

People often request games via VASSAL in the various game forums. That's online games... not "board" games. Should we ban such posts too?

There are freaking links to the iOS app ON each page... put their by BGG.

Mixed messages.... also it's incorrect.


Yes. Vassal game posts belong in the VIDEO games forum!

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No doubt to me that they are board games as long as the integrity of underlying game play is the same. By integrity I mean that they remain turn based, accurate to the rules etc.

In addition, I feel that they have the potential, if they are not doing so already. to bring a whole new set of people to the hobby that we all love.

The price, the convenience of set up; the ability to play anytime, anywhere; the ease of learning the games (if the tutorial is good); all contribute to this.

When new players eventually get fed up of the AI, they may then join online games. As passionate BGG members, we have the opportunity to chat to people who may be making their first foray into the hobby that we love.

In addition, if they search the net, they will find reviews posted on BGG which will draw them into the world of boardgames. This, I feel is better than potentially locking them into the world of VGG.

There will always be a place for cardboard and people sitting around a table enjoying each others company. Long may it be so.

I feel sure that some of the newbies will come to this after having their often prejudiced ideas about boardgames (Monopoly anyone?)
dispelled.

There is a hell of an opportunity here for us!

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lanky321 wrote:

I feel sure that some of the newbies will come to this after having their often prejudiced ideas about boardgames (Monopoly anyone?)
dispelled.

There is a hell of an opportunity here for us!



You should be an admin.
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It's called Board Game Geek which means this site is a place for all geeks that love Board Games, Actual representations of Boatd Games on whatever device are Board Games and should stay on the Geek.
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KingKel wrote:
The problem is, do board gamers actually go to VGG? I don't. When I think "Video Games" I think first person shooter, third person real time strategy game, massively multi-player platform game, or even arcade games, but not sit down 2-6 player board games. I didn't even know there was an iOS board game section on VGG.


Just some notes:

You don't need to navigate to VGG to see software versions of your favourite games. Instead, simply navigate to the game on BGG, scroll down to linked forums and press 'video game forums'. If a game on BGG has a video game forum it's not paired with yet you can use the correction's button to point this out.

The monopoly that admins have on software versions of games comes from a quirk of the system that the news module (like blogs and, to some degree Geeklists) is housed across the sites on Geekdo. It's just a blog but due to it being official and done in-house has it's own module. You're welcome to host your own blog on IOS games - it won't get it's own module but if it's popular, under the current system it'll be on the front page of both BGG and VGG.

When it comes to the database, the Geek differentiates between software and hardware.

Hardware games go to BGG.

Software games, including those based on board games, go to VGG.


This decision was made for a couple of reasons:

1. A lot of users reject software boardgames and don't want to be exposed to them. The current system is a compromise, so no one is happy.
2. Software versions of games are a radical departure from hardware versions, requiring different questions and content. This creates false notifications for users instead interested in the hardware version or vice versa. Storing them as separate but linked records makes it easier to find/post what you want, while not not creating false notifications for other users.
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