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Subject: Technical Reasons for Board Warpage rss

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Robert Eno
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Having just bought RRT and having extremely warped boards, I thought I would chime in with my $0.02 about what is causing this.

Let me start by saying, I have both a printing background, AND a paper engineering degree with extensive experience in the chipboard industry.

The main reason for both the warpage, AND the delamination of plies I am experiencing with my board are due to the way the board was cut. The board was cut so that each section folds in a "C" instead of a "Z". I'll address why this causes the warping first.

On the playing side of the board you have a complete sheet laminated to the board, on the bottom you have two cuts. As the board dries out you have tremendous stress on the top side of the board, with no way to break it, on the bottom of the board you have two stress release points. The printing that is laminated will lose it's moisture faster than the chipboard. This causes the paper to shrink. As it shrinks it causes the board to warp. If the cut was a "z" with one cut on both sides of the board, there would be stress release points, and the board would warp MUCH LESS.

The second issue is ply separation. The "C" cut causes the fold to be very wide, this is causing ply separation.


The only way to effectively fix these two issues is to cut the board in a "Z". Hopefully this is what Eagle is doing.

Rob "Mr. Paper Wizard" Eno
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Trenton
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Ahh, an engineer chimes in with great insight. I just figured that the different temperatures/moisture levels between the manufacturing plant and our homes was causing the contraction or expansion in the board and paper, but I didn't think about it more that that.

Thanks.
 
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Alex Sorbello
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also chinese paper products are not made of wood as western paper and is far less superior than western products.
that also has a factor...
 
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Ben Vögel
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Quote:
also chinese paper products are not made of wood as western paper and is far less superior than western products.
that also has a factor...

Alex, out of curiousity, from what type of fiber is Chinese paper typically made if not wood fibers?
 
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shaveandahaircut wrote:
Quote:
also chinese paper products are not made of wood as western paper and is far less superior than western products.
that also has a factor...

Alex, out of curiousity, from what type of fiber is Chinese paper typically made if not wood fibers?


My bet would be rice, perhaps silage or, considering their population issues...soylent green.
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Jim Cote
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Still though. I must have 100 game boards of all shapes and sizes. I have no warp on any of them. To me it's not a question of making them warp less, it's making them not warp at all. It's been done by everyone else before. There shouldn't be anything to investigate or research.
 
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Alex Sorbello
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they mix other items in it like hay and such because of having less access to forest... Also they are recycling a lot of our paper back nowadays... recycles paper has shorter fibers and is less strong, thus needs other ingredients (chemical) to make up the difference..
 
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Keith Blume
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Hi Robert,

This conversation took place when we met with the manufacturers. As it stands now, we plan on going to a z-cut...good call sir.
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Jim Cote
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keithblume2 wrote:
Hi Robert,

This conversation took place when we met with the manufacturers. As it stands now, we plan on going to a z-cut...good call sir.


But otherwise everything the same? I think I'll wait for warp reports from the new board before buying.
 
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Chris Boote
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Sad to report, that after previously defending my board, which had been warp-free, this weekend I experienced the first signs of warpage 8-(
 
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Keith Blume
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No, there will be material changes as well. I just meant to point out the observation he made was part of the conversation and looked to be part of the solution.
 
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Dominic D.
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I am experiencing horrible warpage with both my Conquest of Empire boardgame and Railroad Tycoon..

Is there any ways to fix? Can you send replacements?
 
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Chris
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DWTripp wrote:
shaveandahaircut wrote:
Quote:
also chinese paper products are not made of wood as western paper and is far less superior than western products.
that also has a factor...

Alex, out of curiousity, from what type of fiber is Chinese paper typically made if not wood fibers?


My bet would be rice, perhaps silage or, considering their population issues...soylent green.


IT'S MADE OF PEOPLE!!
 
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Daniel F
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Any chance on getting paper maps for CoE and/or RR Tycoon? Being a long wtime argamer, I have Plexiglass tables and prefer the superior utility of paper under galss to boards.

Thanks
 
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Andrew Smith
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This thread has to be one of the best examples of why I am proud to be part of this community. True board gamers, and true geeks.

BTW my copy of RT hasn't warped yet. Here's living in hope....

Andrew
 
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Helen Holzgrafe
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Just played our first game of this with a new set yesterday. We had warping problems, too.

Based on what has been said before about the 'c' vs. 'z' cuts I'd say one solution would be to cut the board into its nine separate pieces very carefully. Then it would lie and store flat.

This might not fix any warping caused by inferior board materials, but might help enough to make it more playable.

I have yet to have the guts to do this to our board myself. But, I also have not had the guts to put the board back in the box in that 'z' shape either. It's still lying out on the table taunting me.

I went out some time ago and bought some nice shelf liner (I think at Target?). It comes in a roll and is designed to hold things in place and not let them slide around and also is kind of a cushiony (foam) material. This is not the stuff that looks kind of like foam netting but the stuff that looks more like plastic placemats. It's white. It's very common here in earthquake country, but I don't know about elsewhere. It costs $3 to $5 a roll and you need two to cover an average table (two for sure to go under a Railroad Tycoon board).

Anyway we had been using this under Settler's of Catan and Wings of War to prevent slippage. It works wonderfully. We decided to try it under the Railroad Tycoon board since it was ever so slightly wider than our table.

It seems to make a huge difference. The boards may be warped, but since they just can't slide around or be bumped it makes a the warpage a lot less of a problem. We did not lose a single piece to the floor or have any move around on the board and confuse us.

-Helen
 
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Keith Blume
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Some people have posted that they have had success undoing the warp by carefully bending or bowing back the boards the opposite way of the warp and holding them for 30 seconds or so. Sometimes this needs to be done before the first few plays but the boards seem to stay pretty flat afterwards.

If the boards are warped to the point they are unplayable you can contact our director of customer service Kati (kati@eaglegames.net). For the RR Tycoon warping issues, as mentioned in other threads, we will address the materials/assembly issues of RR Tycoon in the next print run.

edited for typos
 
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Alex Sorbello
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I do want to report that Chinese could produce high quality jobs if asked to do so for more $$$ ofcourse... (wich is usually the benchmark)
 
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Jim Robertson
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Our gaming group has one copy of RRT that one of our members has been bringing for a few months now. Until recently, we have seen very little evidence of warping of the boards. I was beginning to believe we had a magic board or something...

That is, until I borrowed the game and brought it home to play with my family. Having some non-gamers amongst my family, it was not possible to finish a game in one night. So, we have started two different games where we left the board up overnight. The next morning after leaving the game out, we noticed SIGNIFICANT warping.

Perhaps the board is ok as long as you don't leave it open for long periods?

I currently have the boards folded up in the box with a bunch of encylopedias on top of them to try to straighten them out again. I'll let you know how that works, but I think I may have to buy my buddy another copy of the game. Hopefully one that doesn't warp...

 
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Ava Jarvis
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I have a question: I did see some severe warping of my boards when first working out turns on it for an hour or so, but I did some gentle "backbending" of the boards (simply flexed it slowly backwards and held for a few seconds, with a GENTLE curve to the flex, repeated in various places until board was flat). The next day, when the board was out for a full several hours, it did not warp until a few minutes from the end, and then only very little.

I assume that the backbending either bent the woodchip fibers (well, at a very small level, the board is not at all "bent" backwards), or perhaps it stretched out fibers in the top paper? Will the problem just take longer to happen again?
 
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keithblume2 wrote:
This conversation took place when we met with the manufacturers. As it stands now, we plan on going to a z-cut...good call sir.

When playing RRT for the first time last night, I noticed the c-cut and thought it was odd, as the longer side had to bend funny (pulling the printed paper away from the board). Glad to hear that the new boards will have a z-cut, looking forward to picking this game up with the next print run.
 
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Laura Appelbaum
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Actually, in point of fact (speaking as an artist with experience in papermaking and knowledge of the history of paper substances), wood is the *worst* possible substance to make paper from because of its highly acidic nature. Cotton and linen fibers actually make the best (strongest, archivally stable, etc) paper.
 
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Mark Crocker
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I'm with ekted! (Jim C). The only warp problems I have on all of my games is with some of the newer ones... none of the old ones. To me there is no excuse. The older games never worried about "c cuts" and "z cuts. They just lay flat. It's inferior materials, and worse...bad quality control. Eagle, and some of the others, should be ashamed.
 
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Keith Blume
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It certainly was not our intent to create boards that warped. Working with our manufacturer, we have identified the problem and it will be resolved in the next (and future) print runs. It is not as if we had a menu of board material choices and opted for the cheapest. When we look at the production of a game cost is certainly a factor, but from the company's inception we have always tried to give our customers a lot of game for their money. As I have mentioned before, I am very sorry for the inconvenience about the boards.

Keith
 
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