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Subject: Idiot move or stroke of genius? rss

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Mechthild Madgeburg
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The Resistance has been sitting on our shelf for several weeks just waiting - begging - for the appearance of 3 more people for us to play with. The husband and I finally got the opportunity to play it this weekend, but it's going to be some time before we can play it again. In the meantime, we've been analyzing our sessions, researching strategies here, and brainstorming what we might do in different scenarios in the future.

(Carefully. We are discussing this oh so carefully. We know anything we say to each other now about our potential strategies can and will be used against us when we are inevitably assigned rival teams in the future.)

In the absence of being able to test our ideas in game any time soon, I'd like to throw one out here for analysis. Good idea or bad idea...

The situation: It's mission 3-4, the resistance are up by 2, but can't agree on/lacks the info to ID a clean team. The proposal: Throw as many of the most suspected spies as possible on the team at the same time. Down by 2, they will have to fail the mission in order to keep the game alive. The idea is to tempt as many spies as possible to throw down fails at the same time to get data on who they are.

Is this a reasonable play, or is it better to send what you think/can agree is the cleanest team possible and hope for the win ASAP? Is this possibly a terrible idea in 5-6 player games, but more workable in 7+ because of the 2 fails required to fail mission 4? Thoughts?
 
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Clyde W
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This is a legit strategy and something I have done.

However if you're playing 7+ and are up 2 on M3 or 4, you've typically won, unless spies are passing missions.
 
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Alabaster
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I genially always try for the passing mission, but going for a multi-fail can work too.

IF the rest of your team doesn't see it as a spylike move... This is the danger. Make sure you aren't alienating your teammates in the process.
 
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Chad Miller
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clydeiii wrote:
However if you're playing 7+ and are up 2 on M3 or 4, you've typically won, unless spies are passing missions.


to clarify this further, usually it is possible to propose a mission such that everyone is pretty sure that the mission contains exactly one spy.
 
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Colin Sham
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That's exactly what a Cylon would say!
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On the same topic, I always like the idea of trying to dump two spies on a 2-person mission.
 
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Mechthild Madgeburg
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Great, thanks for the input, everyone!
 
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whiskey tango foxtrot
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About 10 games in, we agreed upon a meta-game rule because accidental double-red votes were making it too easy for the blue team.

During the night phase, the spies indicate 1 2 or 3, to show "if we're in the mission together, lowest number is responsible to fail it (or not)." This way, the red team gets some extra strategy options.
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Alabaster
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cocuzzi wrote:
About 10 games in, we agreed upon a meta-game rule because accidental double-red votes were making it too easy for the blue team.

During the night phase, the spies indicate 1 2 or 3, to show "if we're in the mission together, lowest number is responsible to fail it (or not)." This way, the red team gets some extra strategy options.

Accidental double fails are a great part of the game!

Introduce Excalibur, keep the spies on their toes.
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Joshua Kimble
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Vanderscamp wrote:
cocuzzi wrote:
About 10 games in, we agreed upon a meta-game rule because accidental double-red votes were making it too easy for the blue team.

During the night phase, the spies indicate 1 2 or 3, to show "if we're in the mission together, lowest number is responsible to fail it (or not)." This way, the red team gets some extra strategy options.

Accidental double fails are a great part of the game!

Introduce Excalibur, keep the spies on their toes.


But, once the table knows about this possible method of signaling, you can't unlearn it and you'll always want to do it. It is definitely a part of our game, now, and probably for the best.

Of course, we do add "Lancelot" (the guy that can flip from good to bad and back again) just to keep it interesting.
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Clyde W
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Do you always make Mordred 3?
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whiskey tango foxtrot
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clydeiii wrote:
Do you always make Mordred 3?


I've never played Avalon. We play-tested a lot of the expansion stuff that went into Avalon, so I only know it by those terms. Which one is Mordred?
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cocuzzi wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Do you always make Mordred 3?


I've never played Avalon. We play-tested a lot of the expansion stuff that went into Avalon, so I only know it by those terms. Which one is Mordred?

The spy who isn't known to Merlin.
 
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whiskey tango foxtrot
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Vanderscamp wrote:
cocuzzi wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Do you always make Mordred 3?


I've never played Avalon. We play-tested a lot of the expansion stuff that went into Avalon, so I only know it by those terms. Which one is Mordred?

The spy who isn't known to Merlin.


Ahh... well, we never play with the Merlin rules. I think it's a terrible mechanic -- you can play an entire game very well, and end up winning, but then the other team gets a free 1-in-3 (5-player game) to 1-in-6 (9 and 10 player games) chance to steal the win.

Why not just roll a die at the end and see if the entire game was pointless?

(in all seriousness, it's a neat idea, but after three or four spy-wins-due-to-random-guess, it just felt meaningless)
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Alabaster
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cocuzzi wrote:
Vanderscamp wrote:
cocuzzi wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Do you always make Mordred 3?


I've never played Avalon. We play-tested a lot of the expansion stuff that went into Avalon, so I only know it by those terms. Which one is Mordred?

The spy who isn't known to Merlin.


Ahh... well, we never play with the Merlin rules. I think it's a terrible mechanic -- you can play an entire game very well, and end up winning, but then the other team gets a free 1-in-3 (5-player game) to 1-in-6 (9 and 10 player games) chance to steal the win.

Why not just roll a die at the end and see if the entire game was pointless?

(in all seriousness, it's a neat idea, but after three or four spy-wins-due-to-random-guess, it just felt meaningless)

I've played a lot, but it's been very rare that it comes down to the actual one in whatever chance of rebels losing...
There is always some kind of game-related information to influence the spies' decision...
The rebels' goal is to try and trick the spies into choosing the wrong person.
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Clyde W
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You should give it more chances. It's wonderful once you "get" it.
 
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Nic Les
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cocuzzi wrote:

Ahh... well, we never play with the Merlin rules. I think it's a terrible mechanic -- you can play an entire game very well, and end up winning, but then the other team gets a free 1-in-3 (5-player game) to 1-in-6 (9 and 10 player games) chance to steal the win.

Why not just roll a die at the end and see if the entire game was pointless?

(in all seriousness, it's a neat idea, but after three or four spy-wins-due-to-random-guess, it just felt meaningless)


This is indeed the first impression people get from reading the rules (including me). But when playing the actual thing after a 2 or 3 games, you see that the assassination target isn't decided with a dice roll but with observation from the rebel's behaviour.

And this is where Avalon shines: you can't play a generic rebel in Avalon like you do in Resistance, because you also have to cover for Merlin. If you don't, you'll make your team loose.

I read somewhere in the forums that Resistance is more deduction oriented (plot cards) and Avalon is more psychological/bluff oriented (roles).

It's great when the rebels win in 4 missions and the spies are clueless about who is Merlin.
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whiskey tango foxtrot
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Again though, if the spies are clueless, they get a free random chance to win.

"The losing team gets an unopposed, free chance to win, even though they lost" is a horrible game mechanic.

Does any other game give the loser(s) a chance to win if they have a lucky guess/lucky die roll?

We played that mechanic about 5-10 times before deciding that there's no enjoyment added to having the losing team become the winners.
 
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Therron Thomas
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This really depends mostly on where the spies are sitting. If you try this and you have a spy or worse two spys next to the player who decides to try this and are next up to play the leader, you will more than likely lose. Remeber two failed votes is also a spy win.

So you try to call them out on mission 3 or 4, they will simply put themselves on the next missions and get at least one if not two failed confidence in a row.
 
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Nic Les
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twthomas wrote:
This really depends mostly on where the spies are sitting. If you try this and you have a spy or worse two spys next to the player who decides to try this and are next up to play the leader, you will more than likely lose. Remeber two failed votes is also a spy win.

So you try to call them out on mission 3 or 4, they will simply put themselves on the next missions and get at least one if not two failed confidence in a row.


Isn't it 5 failed team votes in a row = spy win?
 
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kevin duda
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Railarian wrote:

Isn't it 5 failed team votes in a row = spy win?

twthomas plays in MAN MODE.
 
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Clyde W
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cocuzzi wrote:
Again though, if the spies are clueless, they get a free random chance to win.

"The losing team gets an unopposed, free chance to win, even though they lost" is a horrible game mechanic.

Does any other game give the loser(s) a chance to win if they have a lucky guess/lucky die roll?

We played that mechanic about 5-10 times before deciding that there's no enjoyment added to having the losing team become the winners.
But you miss a key point: it's not random.

If, as you say, the spies are bad, then they will be bad at the picking of who is Merlin. They will believe they know who Merlin is, and they will be wrong, because Merlin and his rebel buddies out played them. If spies are rolling dice to pick the assassination target, then I would say that is cheating.
 
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whiskey tango foxtrot
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I said if the spies are clueless, not if they are bad.

If clueless, they just pick at random. They just assume they can't trust their "clues" and pick randomly.

Regardless of how they pick, IF they pick, then it feels really bad as a blue guy. You won the World Series! Except the other team guesses who your captain was so they win instead!

Just throw in a golden mission. Blue team picks a mission and if the spies wins it, they win the game.

The point is that it adds a way for one team to win that is not part of standard gameplay, but the other team can't win with the same mechanism.

If blue out-plays red THAT well that red can't guess at Merlin, then why does red get a free chance at stealing the win?
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