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Subject: GameNight! Episode 15 - Airlines Europe rss

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Lincoln Damerst
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This week on GameNight! Nikki, Aaron, Dave & Lincoln play Airlines Europe from Designer Alan R. Moon and published by Rio Grande Games and AbacusSpiele.

Please subscribe to us on YouTube - with more subscribers we get more freedom in how to run the channel.

http://youtube.com/boardgamegeektv
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Dan Edelen
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One of the finest all-around board games I've played, and it's the one I recommend to people who want a gateway with more oomph to it.
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Dave Howe
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I've been wanting to get my copy to the table for a while, hopefully this will help spark people's interests.

Great videos everyone, keep them coming!
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Nick Case
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The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


I agree.
Even with rules explanations, Airlines Europe is knocked out in around 60-70 minutes absolute tops at home and with my game groups which makes it a popular choice. This leads to another rather obvious question......how can it stretch to 2 hours? I suppose I would have to watch it all to find out....
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Lincoln Damerst
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


There are shortcuts in the description of each episode that have links to just the beginning of the game or to the end game discussion. This one has a particularly long discussion with some comparison between this and Union Pacific.

As for the length, while I would like the episodes to be an hour, our stated goal from the beginning is to show the whole game. This is what Aldie wanted to see. So ultimately this is not for everyone. That's one reason why we provide those shortcuts in the description.

Thanks for the feedback

Lincoln
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Mr. Blue
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


+1. Love this game. But it never takes us 2 hours to play, and that's way too much time to spend watching a YouTube video. A little editing here could go a LONG way...
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Gar Per
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mrblueesq wrote:
Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


+1. Love this game. But it never takes us 2 hours to play, and that's way too much time to spend watching a YouTube video. A little editing here could go a LONG way...


Look, plain and simple that isn't what they set out to do people. They basically are recording their game night with very little editing to make this as minimally intrusive to their lives/schedules as possible. That has beeen the premise all along. Nobody is trying to recreate TableTop here.

I'm sure they are sorry that this isn't for you, but at least suprisingly you have another option for 1/2 hour boardgame show.

I have the distinct impression that this show will either be done exactly how it has been, or it simply won't be done at all.
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nate_lockhart wrote:


I have the distinct impression that this show will either be done exactly how it has been, or it simply won't be done at all.


If people want to make 2 hour uncut videos of their game nights and that gives them, and others pleasure, then good on all involved. However, if the aim was to offer an experience that was intended to be shared with as wide an audience as possible, and not just a take it or leave it project for a minority, then the sheer length of the film means that I am (and it would appear others are) put off watching any of it.

I thought it important to offer this as feedback for those involved who can take that on board or ignore as they see fit. From my personal perspective, the harsh truth is that a 2 hour film of a board game being played that should only take 75 minutes to play may as well not have been made, I could find out what I need to know about it faster, by playing it, I simply could never reconcile watching this video.
 
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Having done other work while the video played on a second monitor, I heard the entirety, and I think part of the issue was the OCD-like need to analyze every player decision.

New players will not track it all.

Old players know it already.

So not sure why that running commentary was needed, as it definitely slowed down play.
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Gar Per
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
From my personal perspective, the harsh truth is that a 2 hour film of a board game being played that should only take 75 minutes to play may as well not have been made...


Well, I guess I'm glad the world isn't run from your personal perspective then. I don't think 2 hours is too long for a 75 minute game when it also includes a rules explanation and an after-discussion on thoughts and comparisons to other games.

You are free to give all the feedback you want, but I feel it is misplaced. You are giving them advice on how to make a product they never set out to make. Advice to make it shorter and do more editing is like telling Victory Point Games they should concentrate on mass market party games so they can be relevant to a larger audience. It wasn't their goal to make that product, even if that is what you happen to want.
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nate_lockhart wrote:
Big Bad Lex wrote:
From my personal perspective, the harsh truth is that a 2 hour film of a board game being played that should only take 75 minutes to play may as well not have been made...


Well, I guess I'm glad the world isn't run from your personal perspective then. I don't think 2 hours is too long for a 75 minute game when it also includes a rules explanation and an after-discussion on thoughts and comparisons to other games.

You are free to give all the feedback you want, but I feel it is misplaced. You are giving them advice on how to make a product they never set out to make. Advice to make it shorter and do more editing is like telling Victory Point Games they should concentrate on mass market party games so they can be relevant to a larger audience. It wasn't their goal to make that product, even if that is what you happen to want.


This product isn't made solely for personal viewing, its been deliberately released on You Tube for the world to see in a forum that invites feedback and then linked here on BGG, another arena for feedback and debate.

And by posting my comments here I too open the doors to feedback. Yours included. I don't take it personally, you don't have to perceive my views as those of a global dictator (which is only an accepted POV for those who have met me).

Regardless of whether any venture complies with the design brief agreed from the concept's inception, most successful products get tweaked and retuned along the way. Stoical refusal to adapt in any way is rarely a recipe for longevity.

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Norman Mueller
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I'll chime in here and add my voice to those who enjoy the current format.

There are plenty of youtube videos that are cut to the most time saving and time efficient margin, providing the highest possible amount of information about a game without taking too much time to do so.

I strongly believe that there is a niche for Game Night, just because they don't do it like this.

You won't believe how many BGG users are unsatisfied with their own amount of gaming time and don't want to be suckered into another needless purchase by a short 'watch it played on the dice tower with eric martin and undead viking' video, but instead want to enjoy the laid-back feeling and atmosphere of a realistic game night (see what I did there?) with some likeable fellows.

For someone like me who watches *a lot* of board game videos, this is a change of pace that I welcome.
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I want to just state that I think these videos are great but I do think that the group should play the game ONCE as a group BEFORE doing a game video of the game.

This alone should cut down on the total game time of the video by at least a half hour, if not more.

If the entire group can't make it to that single game play, I do feel the player who is teaching the game should indeed have played the game a couple times at least to facilitate the teaching of the game faster to new people.

In many of these games for this group it really seems like nobody at all has really played these games and they learn the game together for the first game experience and while that is always fun... watching it is sometimes torture.

So that's my recommendation...

Have the person who is going to teach the game KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME BEFORE TEACHING IT and that includes reading the rule book more than once and playing the game at least once, if not twice, and just before doing the video. This way it would be easier to facilitate teaching the game and everything would flow better.
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Stacie Winters
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A continuation of my previous post...

I do think there is a need for videos like this and it is nice seeing a group of people who are learning the game play the game for the first time together, as a group, and not really knowing all the major strategies of how the game works... This gives for a nice, beginner feel to the game so despite how harsh-like my previous post might have seemed, I hope this group never stops doing these videos.

I think for certain people these videos are a superb aid to helping others learn and figure out if a game could be for them and this alone is reason enough to keep doing what they are doing with these videos.

So Keep it up!
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Neale2006 wrote:
Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


I agree.
Even with rules explanations, Airlines Europe is knocked out in around 60-70 minutes absolute tops at home and with my game groups which makes it a popular choice. This leads to another rather obvious question......how can it stretch to 2 hours? I suppose I would have to watch it all to find out....


What I enjoy about these Gamenight! episodes is that they feel like a real game night with your friends. You can tell by their banter that they all know each other well and enjoy the experience of playing games, just like true gamers do.

Two hours is a long time, though. I normally either watch in chunks or skip a part of the episode I don't want or need to watch.

How about creating links to various parts of the video, as
Richard Ham
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does.

You could have a link to the instructional part, and others for early, mid and end game.

Keep up the great work. Love the camera work and the friendliness of these episodes.
 
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Jon Paul
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Another fine episode. I've always had interest in this game, and this video has piqued it further.

At the time I'm posting this, I've noticed that all of the comments so far are here exclusively on the BGG page for this video, while the YouTube page has zero comments. I think a good suggestion for Lincoln is to also note the gameplay shortcuts here on the BGG page as well.

Keep up the fine work!
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This is one of my favorite games, and I love watching these videos.

One rule that they seemed to have overlooked, which may have come into play, is that to get Air Abacus stock, you can discard cards from your hands OR YOUR PORTFOLIO. So, any cards perceived to be 'extraneous' can be used for your gain.

Also, I did a manual scoring of the game, and either I calculated Dave's score wrong, or he shorted himself somehow. On my score, he had 89. He said he only had 81. If my calculation is correct, then the whole end-of-game discussion about moves he could have done to make an impact were moot, because of the final score were incorrect, and definitely WOULD have made a difference. Ah well.

In that same vein, doing the manual score, during the first two rounds, it was a VERY tight game, with Nikki P only down 1 point after the first 2 scores.

Anyway, very well done! I always look forward to when you post Game Night!
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For those complaining about the time: The first 20 to 24 minutes are all rules. The game ends (including the final scoring) around the 1h27m mark. The actual gameplay was just over an hour. After the 1:27 mark, it's all discussion about the game.

As a relative newcomer to the boardgaming excitement, I enjoy watching most of these. I've skipped some games that I've either played before (Small World) or those I've watched played (Legendary).

I've found that most videos for board games fall into three categories: reviews, game play, rules. While many channels do one or two of them well, none of the ones I know do all three. GameNight! gives me all three - it starts with a great overview of the rules, follows with an unedited, complete game, and ends with the group's feelings of the game - and it does it well. The episodes have allowed me to experience everything about the game (other than playing it myself).

Here's what I, as a relative newcomer, like about GameNight:

1. Great explanation of the rules. The game is taught exactly how others do it when I play with them. Details are given of the available moves, followed often by examples of it. While this may take 15-20 minutes to do, it can easily be skipped by those who know the game already.

2. A lightly-edited, complete game. TableTop is great - I get to see celebrities play a board game with Wil Wheaton. However, the game is edited so heavily that I'm only able to watch it more as entertainment than as instruction. GameNight! allows me to see the complete game with very little editing (if any).

3. In-game chatter about strategy, possible moves, and even helping each other. I hate playing games to win. Sure, it's my overall goal, but I enjoy simply playing games with other humans. Most of the time, my experience with a game is so minimal (if at all) that my goal is often to not lose by a lot. Therefore, I enjoy playing with people that will actually help in showing better moves, even if it's after my move is done. It helps me to understand the underlying strategy to the game. The GameNight! crew does the same thing. They don't hide things that would benefit others, which helps the viewers see beyond the basics of the game.

I'm tired of watching a 1-2 minute overview of the rules, followed by 3-4 minutes of review. It doesn't help me, as a newcomer, become acquainted enough with a game to know if I want to play it. GameNight! offers everything I want in a convenient package.

But don't take my word for it.
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Wister wrote:
How about creating links to various parts of the video, as
Richard Ham
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does.

You could have a link to the instructional part, and others for early, mid and end game.

That's pretty much what is done if you go to the YouTube video. You can skip the explanation, or even go straight to the end of game chit chat if you want.
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Regarding the scoring error, in the first round, Lincoln's 3 value white plane purchase was never recorded in the value track and as such, the scoring was off from then on.

After the first scoring, each Aaron, Lincoln, and Dave were all shorted 1 victory point, Aaron and Lincoln each lost a point in both the second and third scoring rounds, each. Total: Aaron -3, Lincoln -3, and Dave -1. This didn't effect the final placement, though.
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We refer to this game at our house as "Ticket to Acquire".
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Another great episode, thanks guys!

As far as the debate about the length of these, I'll go ahead and share my perspective. I think whether or not you want a board game video to be 10 minutes or 30 minutes or 2 hours probably comes down to want you want out of that video. For me personally I greatly enjoy watching people play games so I'm glad there's at least 1 video series that showcases an entire game start to finish. I don't watch many TV shows and I don't watch movies by myself generally so for me board game videos are my primary source of entertainment when I want to watch something. I actually enjoy them more than most TV actually just because I love games so much.

If this were a review or even an overview of the game then realistically it shouldn't be so long. But I don't believe that's what they're going for. They are presenting exactly what it looks like to have a game night, start to finish. And surely that's not going to be for everyone. Fortunately, not only do we live in a golden age of board games, but we also live in a golden age of board game media. Thanks to that there is absolutely something out there for everyone so if Game Night's format isn't to your taste then surely there are many other options.

As someone who's seen almost every Game Night, Watch It Played, Box of Delights, and Rahdo Runs Through video and who's always eagerly anticipating the next one I say keep them coming!
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heccubus wrote:
Big Bad Lex wrote:
The premise of these videos seems sound but then I see the running time is 2 hours and there is no way I can burn this amount of time, watching every cough and sniff of people playing a game. If I have a spare 2 hours I'd rather play a game of my own. Surely this can be cut down to 20-30 minutes max to include the important parts but remove the rinse / repeat moves and other ho hum elements?


There are shortcuts in the description of each episode that have links to just the beginning of the game or to the end game discussion. This one has a particularly long discussion with some comparison between this and Union Pacific.

As for the length, while I would like the episodes to be an hour, our stated goal from the beginning is to show the whole game. This is what Aldie wanted to see. So ultimately this is not for everyone. That's one reason why we provide those shortcuts in the description.

Thanks for the feedback

Lincoln


I concur on the too long, but that's just my humble opinion. I see what Lincoln and Scott are trying to do, and there is obviously an audience for it. My only regret is not being invited
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I really enjoy this series. I appreciate the enormous amount of work that it must take to create these. Someone might read this thread and be discouraged seeing the negative feedback, I just want to make sure the creators feel the love. Bravo.

I agree that it might be possible through editing and additional work to reduce the length of the video. It is hard to argue that the end product wouldn't be better off for it. That being said, I love the series the way it is and would be sad to see the negative feedback discourage the creators because the product is worthwhile and entertaining in its current form.
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