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Board Game: Sentinels of the Multiverse
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Subject: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn (Completed) rss

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Harold Tessmann III
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
AATLEMIDRM wrote:
That said, knowing everyone's cards and barring some horrific misplays, yes, you're going to take her out this round.
I don’t see how, though I don’t know the cards in other players’ hands:

Base damage for the whole round: +1 from the environment’s Cramped Quarters Combat.
Legacy plays something at +1 (without Galvanize), then uses Galvanize and (thanks to The Legacy Ring) Motivational Charge, in that order. 2 + 1 (base) + 1 (Galvanize) = 4 damage for 4 accumulated.
Absolute Zero plays something at +2. Thermodynamics does him no good with Cramped Quarters Combat changing everything to melee.
Tempest plays something at +2. Squall does 1 + 1 (base) + 1 (Galvanize) + 2 (Gene-Bound Shackles) = 5 damage to Dawn for 9 accumulated.
The Visionary plays something at +2. Her power can’t do damage so no additions there.

So we’ve done 9 damage from powers on the table and need to do 26 total, meaning our cards have to do 17 damage. My play can do 5 or 10 damage, depending on what other things we do. Can others do at least 7 damage without hitting secondary targets?

You didn’t make the same mistake the others did and assume that the Plummeting Monorail will necessarily hit Dawn, did you? It hits the two targets with the highest HP, meaning we’d have to leave her at or above 13 (tied for second with Legacy and Tempest) at which point even two Monorail hits won’t KO her, or we’d have to hurt Legacy and Tempest (and maybe Absolute Zero) along with Dawn to keep her at the second highest HP.

Hmmm! If Legacy uses Motivational Charge, Tempest doesn't use Squall, and the rest of you can play cards that drop Dawn to 15 to 13 HP, a total of 7 to 9 damage (but no more), we can indeed finish this on the environment turn.
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Paul DeMartino
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
My mistake was forgetting that Cramped Quarters Combat made everything melee. As Absolute Zero pointed out, he can do 20 points of damage without that condition. With it, not so much.
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
The status at the end of Absolute Zero's turn:

Citizen Dawn
Leader of the Citizens of the Sun
Villain, Citizen
HP: 26/80 HIGHEST VILLAIN TARGET, HIGHEST HP ON TABLE, LOWEST VILLAIN TARGET
In Play: 02
Deck: 7
Discard: 16

Citizen Dawn - In Play:
* Luminous Leadership Ongoing
* Return with the Dawn Ongoing

Megalopolis

Deck: 07
In Play: 03
Discard: 05

Megalopolis - In Play
* Plummeting Monorail Train HP: 3/10 LOWEST HP ON TABLE
* Plummeting Monorail Train HP: 8/10
Cramped Quarters Combat

Legacy
HP: 13/32

Deck: 21
In Hand: 04
In Play: 02
Discard: 13

Legacy - In Play:
Motivational Charge Ongoing, Limited
The Legacy Ring Equipment, Limited

Absolute Zero
HP: 10/29 LOWEST HERO TARGET

Deck: 13
In Hand: 09
In Play: 03
Discard: 15

Absolute Zero - In Play
Null-point Calibration Unit Equipment, Limited, Module
Isothermic Transducer Equipment, Limited, Module
* Sub-Zero Atmosphere Ongoing

Tempest
HP: 13/26

Deck: 20
In Hand: 07
In Play: 01
Discard: 12

Tempest - In Play
Gene-Bound Shackles Equipment, Limited

The Visionary
HP: 14/26 HIGHEST HERO TARGET

Deck: 20
In Hand: 05
In Play: 01
Discard: 14

The Visionary - In Play:

Telekinetic Cocoon Ongoing
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Harold Tessmann III
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
AATLEMIDRM wrote:

Citizen Dawn
Leader of the Citizens of the Sun
Villain, Citizen
HP: 26/80 HIGHEST VILLAIN TARGET, HIGHEST HP ON TABLE, LOWEST VILLAIN TARGET
Legacy punched Dawn for 4, taking her down to 22.
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brian
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
So the card draws changes some things. I have the ability to wipe 2 ongoings now. Which I think is more practical. It will however, cause one of us to be the other target from the monorail.

Which is the better route? I am more afraid of what might come out of the trash along with what gets played. So I think taking the cards out is better.
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
From gallery of ColtsFan76


Dawn down to 22 HP. Monorail 1 down to 3 HP and Monorail 2 at 8 HP. Summoning energy into a ball to blind Dawn's luminous left the squall to pause momentarily...

START! Nothing

PLAY! Ball Lightning
-Target: Citizen Dawn
-Lightning (-> Melee) Damage: 4 +1 Legacy's Galvanize +1 Close Quarter Combat +2 Gene-Bound Shackles = 8 Damage, Citizen Dawn down to 14 HP
-Effect: Destroy Luminous Leadership and Return with the Dawn

POWER! Nothing

DRAW! 1 card

END! Nothing

This appears the better option. Dawn ends up with more HP from both Monorails, none of us take the hit, and the Ongoings are cleared. Visionary can't do any damage, or it takes Dawn out of the top 2 and the monorail might crush us instead.
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Harold Tessmann III
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
From gallery of ColtsFan76


This will hurt Dawn only slightly more than it hurts me…but it will hurt her enough.

Start: destroy Telekinetic Cocoon

Play: Wrest the Mind (ongoing, limited)
Target: Plummeting Monorail (second copy, 8/10 HP)
Effect: I may redirect damage inflicted by this target to another target; if I do, The Visionary deals the this card’s target and herself 3 psychic damage.

Power: Enlighten
Target: Tempest (why not, shouldn’t matter)
Effect: Tempest’s player draws two cards and discard one.

Draw: 1 card

End: nothing

It seems I misjudged the duration of our confinement in relation to the timing of those trains, but if I have the timeline right, this shall still come to pass…

Environment start:
Plummeting Monorail does 5 + 1 (Cramped Quarters Combat) = 6 damage to Citizen Dawn (tied for highest HP at 14): Dawn drops to 8 HP.
Plummeting Monorail does 6 damage to The Visionary (now alone highest at 14 HP): The Visionary drops to 8 HP.
Plummeting Monorail 2 does 6 damage to <highest HP target> which doesn’t matter because The Visionary uses Wrest the Mind to redirect it to Dawn: Dawn drops to 2 HP.
The side effect of Wrest the Mind causes The Visionary to deal 3 + 1 (Galvanize) + 1 (Cramped Quarters Combat) = 5 damage to Plummeting Monorail 2: Plummeting Monorail 2 drops to 3 HP.
The side effect of Wrest the Mind causes The Visionary to deal 3 + 1 (Galvanize) + 1 (Cramped Quarters Combat) = 5 damage to herself: The Visionary drops to 3 HP.
Plummeting Monorail 2 does 6 damage to <highest HP target> which doesn’t matter because The Visionary uses Wrest the Mind to redirect it to Dawn: Dawn drops to 0 HP, defeated.
Due to the “no simultaneous effects” and “a card’s effects are interrupted and go away when it is destroyed” rules from Spiff's compilation, I would argue that the side effect of Wrest the Mind should destroy the Monorail first, which destruction triggers Wrest the Mind’s self-destruction and prevents it from continuing to damage The Visionary—but if I have the other math right, the game ends before it matters.

Also, I initially forgot that the Monorail triggers during the start phase, thus I did my calculations assuming that Close Quarters Combat would self-destruct first, but then I re-read the cards. Thanks to Tempest, we got Dawn into KO range even if we would've had 5 damage per Monorail hit.
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Luc iX
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
Sounds good.
Seems like Citizen Dawn... will have to wait for the next sunrise to try again.

Good job, team!
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
MacMog wrote:


Due to the “no simultaneous effects” and “a card’s effects are interrupted and go away when it is destroyed” rules from Spiff's compilation, I would argue that the side effect of Wrest the Mind should destroy the Monorail first, which destruction triggers Wrest the Mind’s self-destruction and prevents it from continuing to damage The Visionary—but if I have the other math right, the game ends before it matters.

Actually, this is pending an official ruling:

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/31378#comment-31378

To summarize 2 of the opinions that say it will still hit Visionary:

1) Since it doesn't say "then", both effects take place no matter what.

2) While it is true that the card is destroyed, the source of the damage (Visionary herself) isn't. Therefore, the effect wouldn't stop with the destruction of the card, since it is coming from a source that is still there.

Not arguing about it here, but you sure can in the original thread (the link in the post).
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
Pydro wrote:
MacMog wrote:
Due to the “no simultaneous effects” and “a card’s effects are interrupted and go away when it is destroyed” rules from Spiff's compilation, I would argue that the side effect of Wrest the Mind should destroy the Monorail first, which destruction triggers Wrest the Mind’s self-destruction and prevents it from continuing to damage The Visionary—but if I have the other math right, the game ends before it matters.
Actually, this is pending an official ruling:

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/31378#comment-31378
Yup, hence the wording “I would argue”. The Game Custodian posted that thread before. I read it (and should’ve stopped after the first page or so, before people kept repeating the same arguments as if doing so would make them more valid) and didn’t get around to replying/ignored it then.

FWIW, I stick to the rulebooks and Spiff’s FAQ as far as official rulings go. I don’t have the time or energy to repeatedly search their forums for scattered rulings, and if the developers won’t do us the courtesy to make a simple compiled FAQ, I don’t much care what they say. Don’t get me wrong: I’d like for them to go through and address all the ambiguities and poor wordings, real or perceived, ideally with a consistent model for how similar effects work rather than a list of varied results we’d have to memorize. I would love for them to produce a clear breakdown of how things like combat work, something like Android: Netrunner’s run timing chart. I don’t know if they lack the expertise, the will, or the time. Until they produce such a thing, I’ll try to figure out one for myself. If I play with people outside my usual groups (and I prefer not to), I try to bring up potential problems in advance and figure out how we’ll play things before it becomes an issue.

Pydro wrote:
To summarize 2 of the opinions that say it will still hit Visionary:

1) Since it doesn't say "then", both effects take place no matter what.
Which argument completely ignores the “no simultaneous effects” and “a card’s effects are interrupted and go away when it is destroyed” rule. Or maybe I should say “no simultaneous effects” implies an “effects aren’t queued up” rule, which may or may not relate to the “Sentinels doesn’t have a stack (in the Magic: The Gathering sense)” rule. In any case, I don’t see how you could claim this reasoning and then argue that an effect that says “deal damage to all heroes” would stop processing if a hero destroys it as a reaction, and Spiff’s “clarifications” clearly specify that such an effect does stop processing.

Also, the developers packed that card pretty full of text. They don’t write the most consistent text, either. Between these two points, I reject arguments based on the difference between “and” and “then”, or the use of “if” vs. “when” to set up the last sentence as a trigger.

Pydro wrote:
2) While it is true that the card is destroyed, the source of the damage (Visionary herself) isn't. Therefore, the effect wouldn't stop with the destruction of the card, since it is coming from a source that is still there.
Which is complete nonsense. The card enables The Visionary to do the damage. Without that card in play, no rule allows The Visionary to arbitrarily deal herself damage. When a card is destroyed, it goes to the relevant deck’s trash. (Fun fact: you have to go to the glossary of the main rulebook to find this definition, unless I missed it elsewhere.) To make this claim, you have to argue that cards in the trash can still have effects. Which, I suppose, works: I have yet to find a rule that only cards in play have effects or that the trash does not count as “in play”, but both concepts seems so fundamental to the design of card games that I accept them implicitly.

Pydro wrote:
Not arguing about it here, but you sure can in the original thread (the link in the post).
Somehow I doubt my commenting there would change any minds or cause the developers to post a ruling. It probably didn't here, either, but I suppose I could clip part of this for my file of Sentinels rules ambiguities.
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
Khedron wrote:
Yeah, Fueled Freeze is on top of my deck, and it can only destroy 3 ongoings. If it weren't for Cramped Quarters Combat, I could do 20 damage this turn; with Cramped Quarters Combat, I can only do 6, and that will leave me with only a few HP left, so I won't be able to do much next turn.

-Absolute Zero
Out of curiosity, how could you have done 20 or 6 damage? I don’t know what cards you had in your hand.

Assuming everybody agrees that we win, I’ll post my hand too.
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Steve Wardell
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
MacMog wrote:
Khedron wrote:
Yeah, Fueled Freeze is on top of my deck, and it can only destroy 3 ongoings. If it weren't for Cramped Quarters Combat, I could do 20 damage this turn; with Cramped Quarters Combat, I can only do 6, and that will leave me with only a few HP left, so I won't be able to do much next turn.

-Absolute Zero
Out of curiosity, how could you have done 20 or 6 damage? I don’t know what cards you had in your hand.

Assuming everybody agrees that we win, I’ll post my hand too.
The 6 damage was Frost-bound Drain (though it would have been 5 damage, that was when I thought Legacy had an extra Inspiring Presence), which would have done the same amount of damage to me.

I also had Hoarfire, which with Inspiring Presence:
4 cold damage to Dawn
4 fire damage to me, 6 cold damage to Dawn
3 healing to me
3 fire damage to me, 5 cold damage to Dawn
Then, Thermodynamics:
3 fire damage to me, 5 cold damage to Dawn
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
I just officially verified the win. (Sorry about the Motivational Charge mistake.)

I can post everyone's final hands. These include Tempest's and Visionary's final hand draws and the effects of the Enlighten, so Tempest would have needed to discard a card, had the game continued. (They're in order of draw, if you were curious.)

Legacy:
Flying Smash
Next Evolution
Inspiring Presence
Superhuman Durability

Absolute Zero:
Frost-bound Drain
Hoarfire
Isothermic Transducer
Null-point Calibration Unit
Sub-zero Atmosphere
Null-point Calibration Unit
Fueled Freeze
Isothermic Transducer
Coolant Blast

Tempest:
Grievous Hail Storm
Aquatic Correspondence
Otherworldly Resilience
Grievous Hail Storm
Reclaim from the Deep
Electrical Storm
Ball Lightning
Chain Lightning

The Visionary:
Precognition
Cerebral Hemorrhage
Cerebral Hemorrhage
Mental Divergence
Mass Levitation

Congratulations!
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
For the enjoyment of the masses, here are my tracking spreadsheets revealed. (I'm planning on making a few changes prior to the next game. I'm going to add a card count to the tops of the columns and I'm going to add a min function to the hp tracker.)

Public, villain, environment and hp tracker sheet
Private, hero sheet

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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
Yaaaaaaaay...

The uber-human coup is stopped in its tracks, due to the efforts of Megalopolis'... ahem... "Freelance Law Enforcers"!

The masses are eternally grateful... let there be a parade!
meepleninjarobotzombiearrrhgulpdevilkissgoowhistlelaughsauroncoolangry

(oh... and can we step up the inspection schedule on those monorails? The failure rate is kind of... worrisome.)
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
From gallery of ColtsFan76


Congratulations everyone! Nice fight there and glad we figured out a way to end it early instead of potential suffering for one more round. Big thanks to Paul for running this. I am ready for the next one!!!

Thanks for suffering through my continual assumption that
Reclaim from the Deep kept putting things back in your hand.

Out of curiosity, what would have happened had I not played the
Ball Lightning. Did you have the Villain draw and Return with the Dawn draw ready?
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
To be honest, the Monorails aren't from Megalopolis. They're from Ogdenville and North Haverbrook.
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
I didn't, but I could run it through the random number generator.

Environment draw: Police Backup
Return with the Dawn draw: Citizen Dare
Villain draw: Citizen Summer
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
By the way, I submitted this game for the statistics project, so no one else needs to.

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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
AATLEMIDRM wrote:
To be honest, the Monorails aren't from Megalopolis. They're from Ogdenville and North Haverbrook.
...and by gum it put them on the map!
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
Are we going to get another game started soon?
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Re: SotM Game 1 - Break of Dawn
AzureiX wrote:
Are we going to get another game started soon?
I wouldn't mind running one. I'll post over in the Online Gameplay Questions thread if I have time to get one started this weekend.
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