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Subject: Heterodox routing - what do you think? rss

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Patrick Martin
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A recent thread on the facebook ASL list has made me question whether my understanding of the rout rules is at odds with orthodox interpretation. In an effort to better isolate to what extent I may or may not be failing to grok the system, I have created several scenarios below. Each scenario involves one broken squad attempting to rout.

Do you agree with my interpretations or not? Please indicate what you think happens, and why.

Quote:

Scenario 1 - "Crawling Cover"


Until today, I would have said the broken unit has two choices:
1) declare the woods in 33H7 its rout target and rout F5, G6, H6, H7, taking interdiction in F5, G6, and H6, or
2) low crawl into low crawl to F5 without suffering interdiction.

After re-reading A10.5 today, I wonder though whether this sentence --
"A broken unit may end its RtPh in an Open Ground hex in the LOS and Normal Range of a Known enemy unit without Interdiction only if it has used Low Crawl (10.52) to increase the distance between itself and the nearest Known enemy unit during that RtPh" means that the broken unit either takes interdiction even if it chooses option 2) above or is not even allowed to choose option 2. Thoughts?



Quote:
Scenario 2 - "Shellholes or Potholes?"

SSR: 33E6, F6 and G6 contain shellholes.

I believe the broken unit in this case has essentially four options (although option 1 below seems pointless in light of option 2):

1) Rout directly to 33H7 via E6, F6, G6, paying the open ground 1MF cost in each, and suffer interdiction 3 times.
2) Same as above, but pay the shellhole 2MF cost for one of E6, F6 or G6, and suffer interdiction twice.
3) Pay the 2 MF cost in each of E6, F6, and G6 and end the RtPh in G6, suffering no interdiction.
4) Low crawl to E6 and suffer no interdiction.
Quote:
Scenario 3 - "Back to the Future"

SSR: Grain is in season. No quarter is not in effect.

I'm fairly certain of the rules here, although it does make it seem as if the routers are able to see into the future.

I believe the broken unit is required to surrender to the unit in 33U3.

Why? I believe R6 is the only valid rout target, and the only path to that target will subject the unit to interdiction crossing the S hexrow. The only way to avoid that is low crawl, but since it is adjacent to a KEU it will surrender instead.
Quote:
Scenario 4 - "Grain is out of season!"

SSR: Grain is out of season.

Until today my understanding was that the broken unit had a bunch of options here.

1) Don't ignore 33Y1 and rout there via Y4, X3, X2, X1, and take a bunch of interdiction along the way.
2) Ignore 33Y1, and rout to X0 instead, again via Y4, X3, X2, X1, and again taking a bunch of interdiction.
3) Low crawl to Y5, Z5, or AA5, taking no interdiction.

Per the facebook thread mentioned at the beginning of this post, option 3 does not appear to be one that is accepted by most players (including at least one ASLOK three-peater), but I can't figure out why. Give me some quotes if you can figure this one out.

My reasoning is that a unit only has to rout towards the nearest building/woods if it is able to reach that building/woods in that RtPh. If the unit low crawls it obviously cannot reach a non-adjacent but otherwise nearest building/woods in that RtPh, and therefore is merely bound by the first strictures of A10.51 -- i.e. can't rout towards a KEU, nor adjacent to a KEU (unless leaving their hex).

The alternative reading seems to be that a unit using low crawl may only do so into the first of hex of a hypothetical shortest (in MF) rout path towards the nearest building/woods. I don't understand this reading though, since it seems to turn the "to" in
A10.51 wrote:
"a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF) building or woods hex (even if overstacked)"
into a "towards".
Quote:
Scenario 5 - "4 MF Down the Lane"

SSR: Grain is in season. No quarter is not in effect.

43Z8 is only 4 MF away "as the crow flies", but that 4MF path is not a legal rout path for the broken unit.

My interpretation is that the routers can go pretty much anywhere they like in the Z4 or AA8 grain fields. Alternately they could even low crawl to Z4 or AA8 (although why would they want to when they could rout further free from interdiction?)

I'm frankly uncertain whether they could rout down the road starting in AA7 (towards DD3)... on the one hand they have legal rout options that do not require interdiction or low crawl, so they should not surrender via RtPh method... however, does that mean that a unit is obligated to exercise a legal rout path that doesn't involve low crawl/interdiction even if another otherwise legal rout path exists that involves low crawl/interdiction when they start the RtPh adjacent to a KEU? My guess is that the rout down the road is not legal in this case, but it seems like a gray area.

Quote:

Scenario 6 - "A Similar Scenario"

SSR: Grain is in season.

This time the broken unit is 5MF down the lane from a woods hex, but that path would not be a legal rout (since it would require going adjacent to the KEU in 43Y6). I think the routers in this case could go pretty much anywhere north-east of a line running W2-AA4-AA7-W9, taking any applicable interdiction if they leave the grain fields e.g. crossing the road in AA5.
Quote:
Scenario 7 - "Routs Yours is Mined"

SSR: Grain is in season.

The building in 16O4 is obviously the closest woods/building for the broken unit (3 MF direct route). Obviously one option is to rout N4-O4, and eat a minefield attack. However, routers are not required to rout through known minefields. There is a 6 MF route to 16O4 (via L4, L3, M3, N3) that gets them there without going through a minefield. The question is, may the routing unit instead rout to the woods in M2 for 5 MF (L4, L3, M3, M2)? I am agnostic on this question. If I had to rule, I'd actually say that if the unit chooses not to rout through the minefield it is obligated to choose the then shorter route to the woods in M2.

Wow. My thanks if you made it through all that, and even more thanks if you've got some opinions (or even better, citations). Oh, and if you Schwerpunkt guys ever need some scenario names, call me! whistle


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Jeffrey D Myers
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On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
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Riccardo Perni
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interesting questions, sadly I do not have the responses...

waiting for the experts to speak!
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Jo Bader
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Scenario 1 - "Crawling Cover"
- no interdiction when using Low Crall
Scenario 2 - "Shellholes or Potholes?"
- no interdiction when using Shellholes in a Shellhole Hex
(also not when entering the hex or leaving the Foxhole)
Scenario 3 - "Back to the Future"
- you are right. (the smoke is not needed for the example)
Scenario 4 - "Grain is out of season!"
- you have to end the Routphase closer to the choosen rout target
even when using lowcrall. (depends on the target in your example)
Scenario 5 - "4 MF Down the Lane"
- can rout anywhere because can not reach a rout target
Scenario 6 - "A Similar Scenario"
- can rout anywhere because can not reach a rout targetScenario 7 - "Routs Yours is Mined"
- the woods in M2 is your target. Routing units will not enter the known minfield
if this is not necessary. Ie. they are in a minfield and have to rout.
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Klas Malmstrom
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peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
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Randy Knight
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
Is this also true at Night?

And if so, you may simply stay where you are, ADJACENT to the enemy rather than Rout at all?

Randy
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Klas Malmstrom
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aslredbarricades wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
Is this also true at Night?

And if so, you may simply stay where you are, ADJACENT to the enemy rather than Rout at all?
I've always played it (and mostly seen it played) that one has to rout if one can even at Night (in a situation normally requiring a rout), but if unable to, one is not eliminated for failure to rout.

But there is an unofficial Q&A that says a broken unit is never required to rout:

E1.54 At night, is a unit that begins the Rout
Phase in a building, under DM and adjacent to a
Known enemy unit forced to rout? Is the answer
the same for any type of concealment terrain?
How about open ground?
A. No unit is ever forced to rout at night (E1.54).
[Letter193]
193) Jeff Barber to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to ASLML 24 September 2002
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Patrick Martin
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JoBader wrote:

Scenario 4 - "Grain is out of season!"
- you have to end the Routphase closer to the choosen rout target
even when using lowcrall. (depends on the target in your example)
I think this is the one I have the most problem with (Admittedly I'm terrible at collecting/making note of errata, so perhaps I'm missing something here).

Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
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Patrick Martin
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peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Well, I'm glad to know that!
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Klas Malmstrom
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Quote:
Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
See last sentence of A10.52:
"...All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."
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Mark Evans
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Let me offer my thoughts. I haven't read the replies yet.

1) Errata to 10.5 clears up the low crawl options.
2) I believe all those options are fine.
3) I agree with your understanding.
4) I think the only legal low crawl hex would be Y4, otherwise it all looks fine.
5) I believe you can ignore Z8.
6) I agree with your understanding.
7) I believe you must ignore the building and rout to the woods.
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Stephen Stewart
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
BULLSHIT errata like this needs to be released in a a better format instead of having to BUY this crap...

Say Send ERRATA on a QUARTERLY basis...this rule is kinda important..


ALSO, why the change?
 
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Randy Knight
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ASLChampion wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
BULLSHIT errata like this needs to be released in a a better format instead of having to BUY this crap...

Say Send ERRATA on a QUARTERLY basis...this rule is kinda important..


ALSO, why the change?
So how do you really feel about this ?
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Klas Malmstrom
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Quote:
BULLSHIT errata like this needs to be released in a a better format instead of having to BUY this crap...
You don't have to buy this particular ASL Journal - this errata is available here: http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Support/ASLASLSK/tabid/64/...

A10.5 lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.


Quote:
ALSO, why the change?
I have no idea - it has been almost 10 years since this change was made, so it might be hard finding someone who knows/remembers.
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Jeffrey D Myers
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... Sending good wishes into the aether for the eASLRB....
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Patrick Martin
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In some ways I hate discussing questions like this, as they often seem in the same vein as "how many SMC can dance on the shaped charge of a panzerfaust?" I guess this underlines how important it is to play with others, and hopefully with as wide a group of opponents as possible, so as to keep up to date with the spirit of the rules.

The good thing is, if these sorts of situations came up in an actual game I wouldn't expend 1% of the time as this thread is taking on discussing them. If my opponent and I agreed to an interpretation, that's what we'd use... if my opponent had some half-way reasonable explanation I most likely defer to them. (In my one tournament experience so far I don't recall being party to a single rules dispute over the course of 6 games, for what that's worth).

Now, I know I must be in the wrong when my interpretation runs afoul of both Mr. Malmstrom here and Mr. Fortenberry on facebook.

klasmalmstrom wrote:
Quote:
Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
See last sentence of A10.52:
"...All other Rout provisions apply unchanged to Low Crawl, e.g., rout must still be towards the nearest woods/building Location within 6 MF."
The interesting thing here is my initial reading of 10.51 does not say this. To me it doesn't say that a rout must be "towards" the nearest woods/building, but rather "to"!

A10.51 wrote:
[...]Assuming it can abide by the previous requirements, a routing unit must move to the nearest (in MF calculated at the start of its RtPh) building or woods hex (even if overstacked) unless that route is through/into a known minefield or FFE, or is not traversable (e.g., through a Blaze, unbridged Water Obstacle, Cliff, etc.). As long as it reaches that hex during a single RtPh, it need not use the shortest route, but as long as it follows the shortest path in MF otherwise, it may enter a shellhole/entrenchment/pillbox to avoid Interdiction even if it can no longer reach that woods/building hex in a single RtPh. A routing unit can rout into/out of/within a known minefield or FFE at its option, but is not forced to do so merely to reach the closest woods/building hex. At the start of its RtPh, a routing unit must designate its destination and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh [EXC: if using Low Crawl].
I had assumed that the underlined "EXC" above meant that units using low crawl did not have to "designate its designation and must attempt to reach it during that RtPh". Evidently the consensus interpretation though, is that the EXC only applies to "reach it during that RtPh" i.e. the decision to use low crawl is made AFTER a unit has designated a destination.


My understanding of the rout rules in light of this thread is that units must:

1) find the woods/building hex(es) which has the shortest route (in MF) that doesn't involve moving closer/adjacent to a KEU (in other words not "as the crow flies" closest in MF)

2) if multiple hexes are determined in step 1, choose and designate one of them

3) if the route determined is greater than 6 MF in length, then rout wherever you like as long as you don't get closer/adjacent to a KEU, otherwise

4) do one of the following:
4a) low crawl into the first hex of the route determined in step 1 and 2 and stop.
4b) rout along the route determined in steps 1 and 2 and reach the target hex
4c) if the MF cost to reach the target is less than 6 MF, route along a different route that costs up to 6 MF and still allows you to reach the target hex

Does this sound correct?

My previous interpretation of these rules gave the router somewhat more leeway in their direction than what appears to be the consensus interpretation.

Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen! Any other discussion is welcome!

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Chuck Tewksbury
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aslredbarricades wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
Is this also true at Night?

And if so, you may simply stay where you are, ADJACENT to the enemy rather than Rout at all?

Randy
I wonder why he's wondering....as my poor garrison troops flee the elite British raiders
 
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Randy Knight
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ctewks wrote:
aslredbarricades wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
peacmyer wrote:
On scenario 1 I believe that errata has removed the need to low crawl farther away.
Correct, from ASL Journal 5:
A10.5 Errata: In lines 15-16 delete “to increase the distance between itself and ≥ 1 nearest Known enemy unit(s)”.
Is this also true at Night?

And if so, you may simply stay where you are, ADJACENT to the enemy rather than Rout at all?

Randy
I wonder why he's wondering....as my poor garrison troops flee the elite British raiders
I knew why you were inquiring as to my wondering!
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funnymarx wrote:
Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
Any answer to this?
 
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Brian Roundhill
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AngryStarAnarchy wrote:
funnymarx wrote:
Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
Any answer to this?
Q&A from the 92 Annual -

Q. If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building, must it attempt to reach that woods/building in a single RtPh?

A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so. Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of that phase). {92}
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Klas Malmstrom
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Roundhill wrote:
AngryStarAnarchy wrote:
funnymarx wrote:
Where does the imperative to rout towards a woods/building come from if you are not reaching that woods/building in one RtPh?
Any answer to this?
Q&A from the 92 Annual -

Q. If a DM broken unit that must rout is within six MF of the nearest woods/building, must it attempt to reach that woods/building in a single RtPh?

A. Yes, unless it uses Low Crawl, but it need not take the shortest route (in hexes/MF) to do so. Even if it uses Low Crawl, however, it must still do so toward that woods/building (i.e., at no time may it increase the hex range between itself and that woods/building, and must end that RtPh closer to it than it was at the start of that phase). {92}
See also this post above: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12658598#12658598
 
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