Dan Nothdurft
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In the demon scheme, Jean Gray hero cards, now villians, are worth 4 victory points when defeated. My question is this:

On Punisher's: reveal the top card of the villian deck, if it is a villian, boost your attack by the printed victory point amount. Can Punisher be boosted by Jean Gray? Friends say yes, I say no due to the word "printed".


Your thoughts...
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Roy Stephens
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Dan551 wrote:
In the demon scheme, Jean Gray hero cards, now villians, are worth 4 victory points when defeated. My question is this:

On Punisher's: reveal the top card of the villian deck, if it is a villian, boost your attack by the printed victory point amount. Can Punisher be boosted by Jean Gray? Friends say yes, I say no due to the word "printed".


Your thoughts...
The specificity of the word "printed" is your answer.
 
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Matt Perron
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My personal take on this is that it is "printed" on the scheme that her point value is 4, and so far that is how we have played it.

Of course this is by no means the official ruling on this, just the way my group has interpreted it.
 
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Jimmy theCritic
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I think the word 'printed' is just to prevent you counting extra points from villains like Ultron or Supreme Hydra...
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hockeyjedi wrote:
Dan551 wrote:
In the demon scheme, Jean Gray hero cards, now villians, are worth 4 victory points when defeated. My question is this:

On Punisher's: reveal the top card of the villian deck, if it is a villian, boost your attack by the printed victory point amount. Can Punisher be boosted by Jean Gray? Friends say yes, I say no due to the word "printed".


Your thoughts...
The specificity of the word "printed" is your answer.
I think we need an official answer here. I'm with you. Use of the word printed makes it sound as though it literally needs to have a printed points value. But at least one other person seems to disagree. Hope we can get an official answer.
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Adam
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Jimmythecritic wrote:
I think the word 'printed' is just to prevent you counting extra points from villains like Ultron or Supreme Hydra...
I agree with the thought that the word printed is to prevent counting extra points, but until an official ruling comes out stating otherwise, the card says "printed" and thus the boost would be zero.

Just my thoughts from playing MTG and WOW tournaments where what the card says trumps everything else. The guys I play with are rule crazy and would agree with me.
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Jarrod Babel
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I think it's 4 because the scheme says 'each jean grey card counts as a goblin queen villain. It's worth 4 VP.
This means as the card is exposed from the villain deck treat it as if it is printed as a villain with these attributes. So punisher counts it as 4.
 
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jbabel wrote:
I think it's 4 because the scheme says 'each jean grey card counts as a goblin queen villain. It's worth 4 VP.
This means as the card is exposed from the villain deck treat it as if it is printed as a villain with these attributes. So punisher counts it as 4.
The Jean Grey cards are placeholders to represent Goblin Queen Cards. If the game were to come with a separate set of those cards they would have 4 printed on them. The game often uses Heroes are placeholders for other cards. As such, logically, we count it as 4. Doesn't make sense otherwise.
 
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bachpat wrote:
jbabel wrote:
I think it's 4 because the scheme says 'each jean grey card counts as a goblin queen villain. It's worth 4 VP.
This means as the card is exposed from the villain deck treat it as if it is printed as a villain with these attributes. So punisher counts it as 4.
The Jean Grey cards are placeholders to represent Goblin Queen Cards. If the game were to come with a separate set of those cards they would have 4 printed on them.
But that's not the case.
 
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DiggetyDog46 wrote:
bachpat wrote:
jbabel wrote:
I think it's 4 because the scheme says 'each jean grey card counts as a goblin queen villain. It's worth 4 VP.
This means as the card is exposed from the villain deck treat it as if it is printed as a villain with these attributes. So punisher counts it as 4.
The Jean Grey cards are placeholders to represent Goblin Queen Cards. If the game were to come with a separate set of those cards they would have 4 printed on them.
But that's not the case.
It's not the case because then the game would need special cards for each Scheme. Plutonium, goblins etc... The reason they recycle cards like Jean Grey=Goblin Queen is a financial one. As such I don't think reading into things like the fact that VP is not "printed" on Jean Grey. Of course it's not. She's a hero card not a Goblin Queen. But the game REQUIRES a Goblin Queen.
 
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bachpat wrote:
DiggetyDog46 wrote:
bachpat wrote:
jbabel wrote:
I think it's 4 because the scheme says 'each jean grey card counts as a goblin queen villain. It's worth 4 VP.
This means as the card is exposed from the villain deck treat it as if it is printed as a villain with these attributes. So punisher counts it as 4.
The Jean Grey cards are placeholders to represent Goblin Queen Cards. If the game were to come with a separate set of those cards they would have 4 printed on them.
But that's not the case.
It's not the case because then the game would need special cards for each Scheme. Plutonium, goblins etc... The reason they recycle cards like Jean Grey=Goblin Queen is a financial one. As such I don't think reading into things like the fact that VP is not "printed" on Jean Grey. Of course it's not. She's a hero card not a Goblin Queen. But the game REQUIRES a Goblin Queen.
Upon further consideration, I agree with this. The standard rule in card games is "when a card contradicts a rule of the game, go with the card". In this case, normal rule is "VP on a villain card". Jean is not a villain...EXCEPT when the Scheme Card SAYS she is and further defines text that now appears on her card. We ignore all her hero card abilities when she appears as a Goblyn Queen. Why would we not also infer the text on the Scheme as being "printed" on her card? The card trumps the standard rule. Therefore, for this one scenario, the Jean Grey cards are (1) Not heroes and use none of the card's standard text except for cost and (2) are now villains that have the text on the Scheme "printed" on them. If you tally her VP in your stack at the end of the game, you count them as being on there when pulling from the villain deck. This isn't a homebrew scenario... this is an official one with official rules.
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Jacovis
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Official rules that overlooked that people might want to know if the stats count as printed or not since the game has cards that look for that sort of thing.

I am done trying to guess which answers are correct for these cards, I'm just avoiding all of the problematic ones until we get some official answers (someday soon I hope...).

They could have avoided this by simply changing the Special Rules text to "Treat each Jean Grey card as a Goblin Queen card with printed (VP) of 4, and printed (ATK) equal to its (COST). Goblin Queen cards get +1 (ATK) for each Demon Goblin stacked next to the scheme."

You can't start using terms like printed and not address if there are exceptions to physical printings or not in a game that uses a ton of cards for multiple things.

Most of the questions asked about LDC are very subtle, and while it may "seem" obvious what the intent was on some of these situations, this is a game with rules that need to address these kinds of situations explicitly.

I do love the game, don't get me wrong. It is my current favorite.
 
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Roy Stephens
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Jacovis wrote:
...

They could have avoided this by simply changing the Special Rules text to "Treat each Jean Grey card as a Goblin Queen card with printed (VP) of 4, and printed (ATK) equal to its (COST). Goblin Queen cards get +1 (ATK) for each Demon Goblin stacked next to the scheme."
The text on the scheme in question says, verbatim:

"Each Jean Grey card counts as a "Goblin Queen" villain. It's worth 4 (victory point symbol) . It has (attack symbol) = to its (cost symbol), plus the number of Demon Goblins stacked next to the Scheme"

Isn't that exactly what you just said?


I bet you play(ed) Magic, didn't you?
edit: that sounded possibly snarkier than was intended. I was just referring to the nebulous specificity of card effects and timing in Magic (particularly at the tournament level). I was not mocking. I play in Netrunner tournaments; I have no room to mock.

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Jacovis
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hockeyjedi wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
...

They could have avoided this by simply changing the Special Rules text to "Treat each Jean Grey card as a Goblin Queen card with printed (VP) of 4, and printed (ATK) equal to its (COST). Goblin Queen cards get +1 (ATK) for each Demon Goblin stacked next to the scheme."
The text on the scheme in question says, verbatim:

"Each Jean Grey card counts as a "Goblin Queen" villain. It's worth 4 (victory point symbol) . It has (attack symbol) = to its (cost symbol), plus the number of Demon Goblins stacked next to the Scheme"

Isn't that exactly what you just said?


I bet you play(ed) Magic, didn't you?
edit: that sounded possibly snarkier than was intended. I was just referring to the nebulous specificity of card effects and timing in Magic (particularly at the tournament level). I was not mocking. I play in Netrunner tournaments; I have no room to mock.

I played Magic 20 years ago, then moved on to better things . (I still have a couple of decks and all my older cards from way back when.)

Saying the card is "worth" 4 VPs isn't the same as saying "it should be considered to have 4 VPs printed on it." I know it seems particular, but a lot of gamers are particular, and card games especially need to be as clear as possible about these things.

My point is really why not be as specific as possible anyway instead of waiting for people to ask the inevitable question? Most of the cards we're seeing questions about have plenty of room for clarifying text (usually just a word or two extra) to make sure there isn't ambiguity with the rules.

The other reason I think it needs to say "printed" if it means "printed" is because they created cards that specify "printed" when they target, and because this game uses cards as replacements a lot they should be clear about how those replacements interact with this mechanic. It's about key words and triggers and their responses, essentially. If they didn't want to go into detail about that kind of interaction they shouldn't have used "printed" with Punisher.

I play a lot of card games, and have played a lot of CCGs over the years (Magic, L5R, VS, Pokemon, WARS, Star Trek, Warlord, etc. etc.). This game now (with Dark City) has over 220 distinct cards, which equates to thousands of card interactions, and as such really needs to start being specific. We also have a new expansion coming out soon (I'm still waiting for X-Statix....), and so much more is going to be added that in order to keep things clear the designer really needs to create and keep a system of organization that will be consistent throughout.

I play Netrunner as well, and Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings LCGs, as well as most of the deckbuilders out there. You'll notice in all of these games they use specific card structure and keywords to keep text like this consistent. Things slip through, sure, but the keyword placement, specific orientation of text, and formulaic instead of "prose" card instructions make the games play much more smoothly and help avoid confusion like this in many cases.

No offense taken at the "snark," () btw. I know I come across as snarky or angry in text posts more often than I'd like, especially when I'm typing on my tablet and am too lazy to add emotive words and phrases to my comments. I'm really just glad to be playing the games I love and sharing them with this community and like everyone here I am passionate about it.

Cheers

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Roy Stephens
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Jacovis wrote:
hockeyjedi wrote:
Jacovis wrote:
...

They could have avoided this by simply changing the Special Rules text to "Treat each Jean Grey card as a Goblin Queen card with printed (VP) of 4, and printed (ATK) equal to its (COST). Goblin Queen cards get +1 (ATK) for each Demon Goblin stacked next to the scheme."
The text on the scheme in question says, verbatim:

"Each Jean Grey card counts as a "Goblin Queen" villain. It's worth 4 (victory point symbol) . It has (attack symbol) = to its (cost symbol), plus the number of Demon Goblins stacked next to the Scheme"

Isn't that exactly what you just said?


I bet you play(ed) Magic, didn't you?
edit: that sounded possibly snarkier than was intended. I was just referring to the nebulous specificity of card effects and timing in Magic (particularly at the tournament level). I was not mocking. I play in Netrunner tournaments; I have no room to mock.

I played Magic 20 years ago, then moved on to better things . (I still have a couple of decks and all my older cards from way back when.)

Saying the card is "worth" 4 VPs isn't the same as saying "it should be considered to have 4 VPs printed on it." I know it seems particular, but a lot of gamers are particular, and card games especially need to be as clear as possible about these things.

My point is really why not be as specific as possible anyway instead of waiting for people to ask the inevitable question? Most of the cards we're seeing questions about have plenty of room for clarifying text (usually just a word or two extra) to make sure there isn't ambiguity with the rules.

The other reason I think it needs to say "printed" if it means "printed" is because they created cards that specify "printed" when they target, and because this game uses cards as replacements a lot they should be clear about how those replacements interact with this mechanic. It's about key words and triggers and their responses, essentially. If they didn't want to go into detail about that kind of interaction they shouldn't have used "printed" with Punisher.

I play a lot of card games, and have played a lot of CCGs over the years (Magic, L5R, VS, Pokemon, WARS, Star Trek, Warlord, etc. etc.). This game now (with Dark City) has over 220 distinct cards, which equates to thousands of card interactions, and as such really needs to start being specific. We also have a new expansion coming out soon (I'm still waiting for X-Statix....), and so much more is going to be added that in order to keep things clear the designer really needs to create and keep a system of organization that will be consistent throughout.

I play Netrunner as well, and Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings LCGs, as well as most of the deckbuilders out there. You'll notice in all of these games they use specific card structure and keywords to keep text like this consistent. Things slip through, sure, but the keyword placement, specific orientation of text, and formulaic instead of "prose" card instructions make the games play much more smoothly and help avoid confusion like this in many cases.

No offense taken at the "snark," () btw. I know I come across as snarky or angry in text posts more often than I'd like, especially when I'm typing on my tablet and am too lazy to add emotive words and phrases to my comments. I'm really just glad to be playing the games I love and sharing them with this community and like everyone here I am passionate about it.

Cheers

I see your point, but, my counterpoint would be: if you collect 4vp for a jean card in your victory pile, then she has 4vp when revealed from villain deck. She has 4vp available for whatever purpose, be it Punisher's ability or scoring, the moment the Scheme is chosen, until the game ends. For this scheme, jean has a 4vp which is PRINTED on the scheme. The scheme text supersedes and replaces her normal text.

Now, that said, yes I concede that there are rules lawyers out there that would argue the point...but, I don't want to play with them...certainly not in a friendly non-tournament setting, anyway.
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All I know is that the Dragonball Z CCG was a fun game that never paid attention to strict wording and that's partly what doomed it. That and that the names of the cards had nothing to do with the image on them.

I'm glad Legendary isn't like that anymore.
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Jacovis
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hockeyjedi wrote:
I don't want to play with them...certainly not in a friendly non-tournament setting, anyway.
Well, there is also the fact that I like to make sure I'm playing the game correctly. We house rule until we find out for sure, but since we can find out for sure with the designer and publisher being present here, why not learn how they meant for it to be played AND clear up any air about the confusion as well?

The other thing is that this is a Co-op (or semi-coop) game, so since we're playing against the game we really need the game's input to come to a legitimate house rule or else it feels like cheating in a way. I tend to choose the option that makes the game more difficult for my house rules until I find out otherwise because I like the added challenge, but of course, as I mentioned, the guys are here so why not find out?

Oddly enough, I'm actually not a competitive gamer. I always play for fun. My records at losing are famous in my gaming circles, and it's never bothered me. So maybe next time I'm in the Bay Area we should meet up at Game Kastle and get a game or two in! I've got this really bad Netrunner deck you'd probably love to kick around too! laugh

Cheers!


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Roy Stephens
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Jacovis wrote:


Oddly enough, I'm actually not a competitive gamer. I always play for fun. My records at losing are famous in my gaming circles, and it's never bothered me. So maybe next time I'm in the Bay Area we should meet up at Game Kastle and get a game or two in! I've got this really bad Netrunner deck you'd probably love to kick around too! laugh

Cheers!


We sound like peas in a pod. I came in 4th in my last Netrunner tournament...out of 4. :-). I'd be glad to play any time. I have a good Skype setup going with a friend in the UK...if you want to try that sometime, geekmail me.
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