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Subject: By himself, Aragorn could never defeat a Thug rss

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It's peculiar. Aragorn could defend against a Harbor Thug -- but then he can't attack him. If Aragorn wants to attack, he'll first have to absorb 3 damage. The thug will have one life left, and Aragorn will end up dead, no matter what he does.
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And that is why this game just doesn't work for me, oh how I wish it would!

Edit: cry for help as to how I can get over that, this game fits right into the scope of LOTR game I'd like to play...sigh.
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Could you elaborate? What prevents Aragorn from attacking the harbor thug? Based on their stats -- Aragorn with 3 attack, 2 defense, 5 life and the thug with 3 attack, 1 defense and 3 life -- Aragorn will win, even if the thug attacks first.
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honeyralmond wrote:
Could you elaborate? What prevents Aragorn from attacking the harbor thug? Based on their stats -- Aragorn with 3 attack, 2 defense, 5 life and the thug with 3 attack, 1 defense and 3 life -- Aragorn will win, even if the thug attacks first.
Yes, I don't have HoN yet, but I see those stats and based on them and a cursory read over the card itself (on Cardgamedb), it appears that Harbor thug swings for 3, hits 1 leaving Aragorn with 4 HP; Aragorn counters for 3, hits 2 leaving the Thug with 1 HP. Repeat one more round, Thug is more than dispatched and Aragorn still has 3 HP.

EDIT: so I'd like to see that explanation too.
 
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John85 wrote:
honeyralmond wrote:
Could you elaborate? What prevents Aragorn from attacking the harbor thug? Based on their stats -- Aragorn with 3 attack, 2 defense, 5 life and the thug with 3 attack, 1 defense and 3 life -- Aragorn will win, even if the thug attacks first.
Yes, I don't have HoN yet, but I see those stats and based on them and a cursory read over the card itself (on Cardgamedb), it appears that Harbor thug swings for 3, hits 1 leaving Aragorn with 4 HP; Aragorn counters for 3, hits 2 leaving the Thug with 1 HP. Repeat one more round, Thug is more than dispatched and Aragorn still has 3 HP.

EDIT: so I'd like to see that explanation too.
I believe the OP is referring to the fact that a hero cannot defend and attack in the same turn. If Aragorn defends Harbor Thug, he takes 1 damage but cannot attack (without Unexpected Courage or some other effect). If the Harbor Thug attack is unblocked, Aragorn will take 3 damage. He can then attack Harbor Thug, but will not kill him without assistance. On the next round, Aragorn would have to defend or be killed, either way preventing him from attacking and killing Harbor Thug.

I have no problem with that issue. Tolkein's stories seem to involve working together, not running off and trying to be a hero all by yourself. So one hero is unable to do everything alone.
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Beaveman wrote:

I believe the OP is referring to the fact that a hero cannot defend and attack in the same turn. If Aragorn defends Harbor Thug, he takes 1 damage but cannot attack (without Unexpected Courage or some other effect). If the Harbor Thug attack is unblocked, Aragorn will take 3 damage. He can then attack Harbor Thug, but will not kill him without assistance. On the next round, Aragorn would have to defend or be killed, either way preventing him from attacking and killing Harbor Thug.

I have no problem with that issue. Tolkein's stories seem to involve working together, not running off and trying to be a hero all by yourself. So one hero is unable to do everything alone.
Gotcha. Not an immersion breaking issue for me, since in terms of stats Aragorn is still the stronger character. This situation focuses on the rule that the enemy is the one to engage and attack first, and that a hero either defends or attacks. It doesn't take into consideration other aspects of the game, such as events that allow you to attack before an opponent, ready, or having allies. If these rule peculiarities don't bother you, I don't see why Harbor Thug v Aragorn would.
 
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Also, Eowyn would get killed in one attack from the Witch King. wow
 
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davekuhns wrote:
And that is why this game just doesn't work for me, oh how I wish it would!

Edit: cry for help as to how I can get over that, this game fits right into the scope of LOTR game I'd like to play...sigh.
I still like the game, but the Aragorn/Thug thing is an index of the difficulty of the game. I'm disappointed that you can't really play most of the expansion scenarios with just the core cards and those from that scenario. I first bought the core set and the first Hobbit saga, and quickly discovered it's not really possible to put up a fight in those scenarios with just those two sets -- even though the original manual sort of implies otherwise.
 
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Wretched Git wrote:
davekuhns wrote:
And that is why this game just doesn't work for me, oh how I wish it would!

Edit: cry for help as to how I can get over that, this game fits right into the scope of LOTR game I'd like to play...sigh.
I still like the game, but the Aragorn/Thug thing is an index of the difficulty of the game. I'm disappointed that you can't really play most of the expansion scenarios with just the core cards and those from that scenario. I first bought the core set and the first Hobbit saga, and quickly discovered it's not really possible to put up a fight in those scenarios with just those two sets -- even though the original manual sort of implies otherwise.
con
oh you can my friend, with a second core set and the second hobbit saga you can have a lot of funtime
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Wretched Git wrote:

I first bought the core set and the first Hobbit saga, and quickly discovered it's not really possible to put up a fight in those scenarios with just those two sets -- even though the original manual sort of implies otherwise.
I strongly disagree with this evaluation. Many players refer to the card pool as the most important aspect with regards to winning a scenario. I think knowledge of the scenario and adjustment of your game play to the specific challenges therein (i.e. strategy) are far more important. While a large and diverse card pool certainly improves your deck, the most important 'must have' cards are contained within the core set. The Hobbit expansions, in particular, offer all the tools you need to overcome the scenarios presented.
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I have to disagree. Maybe this is a peculiarity of the Hobbit boxes, which I haven't bought yet, but I think most of the Mirkwood and KD-Dwarrowdelf expansions are definitely beatable with only core cards and the cards from the relevant expansion.

Of course, card synergies definitely make it easier when you have more cards to build your deck with. But I haven't found any quests that were broken in this way, aside from the ones that you just can't beat solo (y'all know which ones I'm talking about cry).

As far as the "broken" mechanic of quest/defend/attack goes, that's the foundation of this game's strategy - but it's also very thematic. One of the main themes in LOTR is that noone can stand alone against evil. Almost every great fight scene in the books involves heroes cooperating against a lone villain, and the antagonists' failure to work together is almost always a major contributing factor in their defeat.

Now, if this was "Conan: the LCG" and it had the same mechanic, I would agree that the system was broken.
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CletusVanDamme wrote:
Also, Eowyn would get killed in one attack from the Witch King. wow
She would have, but she was wearing Citadel Plate that allowed her to survive the fell beast's undefended attack. She then killed the beast. In the next round, the Witch King himself engaged her, she defended and was almost killed, but Merry attacked and wounded him. In the next round Eowyn played Quick Strike and killed the Witch King.

This was, of course, the yet-unreleased Tactics version of Eowyn. devil
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Gryphon Tracks wrote:
CletusVanDamme wrote:
Also, Eowyn would get killed in one attack from the Witch King. wow
She would have, but she was wearing Citadel Plate that allowed her to survive the fell beast's undefended attack. She then killed the beast. In the next round, the Witch King himself engaged her, she defended and was almost killed, but Merry attacked and wounded him. In the next round Eowyn played Quick Strike and killed the Witch King.

This was, of course, the yet-unreleased Tactics version of Eowyn. devil
Thumb for "Conan", and tip for that analysis. Thanks for the breakdown!

EDIT: that unreleased, tactics version must have a great attack value or text like Action: When attacking Witch-King of Angmar, exhaust (or 'place two wound tokens') on Merry to instantly defeat him.
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John85 wrote:

Thumb for "Conan", and tip for that analysis. Thanks for the breakdown!

EDIT: that unreleased, tactics version must have a great attack value or text like Action: When attacking Witch-King of Angmar, exhaust (or 'place two wound tokens') on Merry to instantly defeat him.
Yeah, I didn't get as far as finding a card to boost Eowyn's attack high enough to kill him. But I bet it could be done with standard cards if you have enough resources and cards to pile up multiple bonuses on her attack.

It would be amusing to write up the whole Battle of Pellenor Fields as a mockumentary session report, but I'll have to leave that to someone who has a much more serious card pool than me.
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Wretched Git wrote:
It's peculiar. Aragorn could defend against a Harbor Thug -- but then he can't attack him. If Aragorn wants to attack, he'll first have to absorb 3 damage. The thug will have one life left, and Aragorn will end up dead, no matter what he does.
Of course, you forgot the fact that Aragorn had Unexpected Courage attached and wins from the Thug. Or has his Bow. Or his ring. Or all of them ...
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I had a hard time with not being able to defend and attack in the same turn and even played it while teaching myself the game (like Magic) until it dawned on me that wasn't designed that way. D'oh!

Maya is correct that LOTR has always been about the fellowship working together. It was never about a superhero-like character mowing down hordes of enemies.

The other way I got around the issue was the books (and forgive me if my memory is spotty here) never had the fellowship following an offensive path. They usually planned a defensive plan of action. I can't imagine Aragorn doing a first strike. I picture the group either hiding or avoiding trouble or striking back after the enemy made their intentions known.

After accepting this premise, I have enjoyed the game.
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I have had no problem with the immersion and the fact that you can not both defend and attack on the same round.

I generally assume that an enemy is not singular if its a low powered one. So if Aragon was surrounded by Thugs (rather then a singular thug) things feel like they make alot of sense. All that matters to me is how I see things in my head. (ie. Aragon being mobbed and mauled by a crowd of thugs).



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North_Wolf wrote:
I generally assume that an enemy is not singular if its a low powered one. So if Aragon was surrounded by Thugs (rather then a singular thug) things feel like they make alot of sense. All that matters to me is how I see things in my head. (ie. Aragon being mobbed and mauled by a crowd of thugs).
Agreed. I imagine each card is actually a small gang of harbor thugs, especially considering that if the right shadow card is drawn, they can even almost defeat Gandalf. Quite a feat for a single unarmed man.
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Zwerg wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:

I first bought the core set and the first Hobbit saga, and quickly discovered it's not really possible to put up a fight in those scenarios with just those two sets -- even though the original manual sort of implies otherwise.
I strongly disagree with this evaluation. Many players refer to the card pool as the most important aspect with regards to winning a scenario. I think knowledge of the scenario and adjustment of your game play to the specific challenges therein (i.e. strategy) are far more important. While a large and diverse card pool certainly improves your deck, the most important 'must have' cards are contained within the core set. The Hobbit expansions, in particular, offer all the tools you need to overcome the scenarios presented.
With the core cards, the only way to win the Hobbit scenarios, I think, is to give yourself less than 50 cards, or to misread the cards and the rules, as many people do...
 
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Tegarend wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
It's peculiar. Aragorn could defend against a Harbor Thug -- but then he can't attack him. If Aragorn wants to attack, he'll first have to absorb 3 damage. The thug will have one life left, and Aragorn will end up dead, no matter what he does.
Of course, you forgot the fact that Aragorn had Unexpected Courage attached and wins from the Thug. Or has his Bow. Or his ring. Or all of them ...
... and you're conveniently ignoring the scenario I proposed, which is Aragorn meeting the Thug alone and without help. (Besides, one could easily propose help for the thug, too -- a powerful shadow effect, quest condition, etc.)
 
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Wretched Git wrote:
Tegarend wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
It's peculiar. Aragorn could defend against a Harbor Thug -- but then he can't attack him. If Aragorn wants to attack, he'll first have to absorb 3 damage. The thug will have one life left, and Aragorn will end up dead, no matter what he does.
Of course, you forgot the fact that Aragorn had Unexpected Courage attached and wins from the Thug. Or has his Bow. Or his ring. Or all of them ...
... and you're conveniently ignoring the scenario I proposed, which is Aragorn meeting the Thug alone and without help. (Besides, one could easily propose help for the thug, too -- a powerful shadow effect, quest condition, etc.)
And based upon what do you think Aragorn could defeat the thug? How often in the books or movies do you see Aragorn act without his Ring, his bow, his sword, his courage, ... ?

The scenario you propose out of thematical reasons is a nonsensical one.
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Tegarend wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
Tegarend wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
It's peculiar. Aragorn could defend against a Harbor Thug -- but then he can't attack him. If Aragorn wants to attack, he'll first have to absorb 3 damage. The thug will have one life left, and Aragorn will end up dead, no matter what he does.
Of course, you forgot the fact that Aragorn had Unexpected Courage attached and wins from the Thug. Or has his Bow. Or his ring. Or all of them ...
... and you're conveniently ignoring the scenario I proposed, which is Aragorn meeting the Thug alone and without help. (Besides, one could easily propose help for the thug, too -- a powerful shadow effect, quest condition, etc.)
And based upon what do you think Aragorn could defeat the thug? How often in the books or movies do you see Aragorn act without his Ring, his bow, his sword, his courage, ... ?

The scenario you propose out of thematical reasons is a nonsensical one.
It's a simulation of a "fellowship," not a tactical card game equivalent of a first person shooter.
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Tegarend wrote:

And based upon what do you think Aragorn could defeat the thug? How often in the books or movies do you see Aragorn act without his Ring, his bow, his sword, his courage, ... ?
So courage is innate to the thug, but not to Aragorn?

I understand why the game needs to be this way. But let's not pretend that the fact that the Aragorn card, by itself, cannot defeat the thug card is a reinforcement of theme.

We don't have to pretend everything in the game reinforces theme.

Over all, I think this game is fantastic in carrying theme through its mechanics. One of the best I've ever seen, in that regard.
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Wretched Git wrote:

We don't have to pretend everything in the game reinforces theme.

Over all, I think this game is fantastic in carrying theme through its mechanics. One of the best I've ever seen, in that regard.
I've lost track of what side you are even arguing against in your own thread.
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