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Subject: Turn Zero restrictions on Japanese rss

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Bill Williams
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"Because of restrictions imposed by the Japanese government, Japanese units may move and and attack within the five northern provinces of Hopeh, Chahar, Shantung, Suiyuan, and Shansi only on turn 0..."

There are a number of Japanese units that set up in a railroad hex in Lianing, or West Pacific Holding Box.

Are these units:

1) stuck and cannot do a thing on turn zero.
2) able to activate as long as they move into one of the five listed provinces.
3) able to move as long as the first hex they enter is in one of the listed provinces.
4) free to move as Lianing (as well as one other province I cannot remember the name of right now) is in fact further north than the five listed provinces.

??

Thanks in advance

Bill
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Leonard To
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That paragraph forbids Japan movement and attack outside of those provinces, apart from provinces where Japan already has unit in.
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Bill Williams
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Thanks Leonard

To quote the entire paragraph:

"Because of restrictions imposed by the Japanese government, Japanese
units may move and attack within the five northern provinces of
Hopeh, Chahar, Shantung, Suiyuan, and Shansi only on turn 0. This
restriction is cancelled in territories (and only in those territories)
where a Japanese unit has previously been attacked during the turn. No
IJN ground units, air units, and fleets can be activated before Turn 1,
unless the KMT attacks any of them during Turn 0. Should any IJN
unit be attacked, all IJN units may immediately be activated on turn 0."

I am happy to play it the way that you suggest, as it seems to makes more sense, but I am struggling to see how we get to that from the paragraph as written

In errata I think the "This restriction is cancelled ..." sentence should be revised to

"This restriction is cancelled in territories in which a Japanese unit was placed during setup."

Thanks

Bill
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Steven N.

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It seems pretty clear to me. If you revise as you suggest you change the rule substantially, and remove two important exceptions.

1. in areas where Japanese units are attacked they are free to attack back, even outside the initial zone, but only within that specific area.

2. Also, naval forces are unavailable on turn 0, but if any single one is attacked, are all released. Assumably their attacks would still be restricted to the above zones.
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Bill Williams
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Steve

I don't believe the wording I suggested removes the IJN restrictions. That wasn't my intent anyway.

My confusion with the rules as written is the IJA units that setup outside of the five named provinces. As written they can do nothing unless attacked, and I was ok with that. However I asked for a clarification because the Japanese player in our game thought it was ridiculous that he could set up in the provinces north of those 5 and not be able to use those troops in turn 0.

Leonard's clarification has actually made me more confused

I think I would like a confirmation that the rules as written are correct and any apparently bizarre restrictions are down to us being mere military leaders following an edict from the government.

Considering how few CP are available in turn 0 I doubt there will be many military actions anyway.

Bill
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Leonard To
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Sorry if I haven't been very clear in the previous reply.

First, a little background at the beginning of conflict (turn 0):

The provinces of Jehol and Liaoning are considered by Japan as part of Manchukuo (with "the last emperor" Puyi on its throne), a puppet state of Japan.

Peiping (modern day Beijing) and Tientsin have small Japanese garrison under the treaty from the time of Boxer Rebellion.

There is also a small IJN garrison in Shanghai within the Japanese concession of the city.

The edict from the Japanese government at the beginning of the conflict is to contain the attack within the provinces of Hopeh, Chahar, Suiyuan, Shansi, and Shantung. These provinces are outside the power of the KMT Central Army. Japan expects these provinces to surrender quickly.

IJN doesn't even want to be involved in the Chinese theater at this stage. The whole Marco Polo Bridge Incident (and its aftermath) has been orchestrated by aggressive factions in the IJA. Historically, IJN units in Shanghai is attacked on August by KMT Central Army units.

In game terms:
On Turn 0, IJA is free to move ANY IJA units available, whether or not they have been attacked (there won't be any point putting unit in the WP holding box on turn 0 if they are not allowed to move). However, they cannot move into any CHINESE TERRITORY other than the said 5 provinces. For example, the unit in WP Holding Box cannot be sea transported to Shanghai, unless Japanese force in Shanghai is being attacked.


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Steven N.

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Leonard,

Thank you for the historical background. To follow up, so the factions of the IJA behind the Marco Polo Bridge incident didn't expect a wider war? They expected the conflict to remain short and localized in the north?

And if you don't mind, what is going on with Japan's civilian government at this point? How much active opposition to the war is there, and where in the political spectrum is the opposition coming from?

Thank you!

(The game is just terrific by the way. I don't usually play war-games but I couldn't resist this one.)
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Leonard To
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The faction in the IJA are the younger commanders, who see the enlargement of war (the larger the better) as a way to increase their power.

The Japanese government are more cautious, as it is more inclined to prepare for war with USSR.

It is difficult to quantify the opposition to enlarge the conflict. But there are talks through most of July 1937 between the governments to contain the war.

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Bill Williams
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Thanks Leonard

One final clarification.

Japan considers Jehol and Liaoning not to be Chinese territory, therefore the IJA is free to enter those provinces. Is this correct?

Bill
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Leonard To
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Yes, they are.
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Jeff Finkeldey
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Leonard wrote:

In game terms:
On Turn 0, IJA is free to move ANY IJA units available, whether or not they have been attacked (there won't be any point putting unit in the WP holding box on turn 0 if they are not allowed to move). However, they cannot move into any CHINESE TERRITORY other than the said 5 provinces. For example, the unit in WP Holding Box cannot be sea transported to Shanghai, unless Japanese force in Shanghai is being attacked.


To build on this statement, it seems obvious for the Japanese to use Defense Reserve movement to sea move the 3rd Div from the WP Holding box to Shanghai in response to a KMT attack. Is this permitted? If not, what rule prevents it?
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Ross Mortell
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I thought that Defensive Reserve movement had to be performed to a hex that you control.

Don't the special scenario rules state that Shanghai is KMT controlled?

This would prevent the reserve movement wouldn't it?
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Wendell
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Leonard wrote:
There is Japanese unit in Shanghai at the start of scenario. I don't see why the city is KMT controlled.
A KMT unit starts in Shanghai too and rules say it's KMT controlled (at least in the campaign game it says that - but there's a KMT unit and a Japanese unit in Shanghai in both the campaign and miniscenario 1).
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Ross Mortell
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Actually (having looked at the rules now blush) I meant that you can only use sea transport to a controlled hex (apart from amphibious assault) and therefore when I played the mini scenario I assumed that you couldn't just ship a Japanese division in via defensive reserve movement.
(I know - never assume anything)

So - the ruling is that the hex is contested and that you CAN use defensive reserve movement to add extra units via sea transport?

Is that correct Leonard?

By the way congratulations on a great game - enjoying it a lot
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Wendell
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Ross99 wrote:
Actually (having looked at the rules now blush) I meant that you can only use sea transport to a controlled hex (apart from amphibious assault) and therefore when I played the mini scenario I assumed that you couldn't just ship a Japanese division in via defensive reserve movement.
(I know - never assume anything)

So - the ruling is that the hex is contested and that you CAN use defensive reserve movement to add extra units via sea transport?

Is that correct Leonard?

By the way congratulations on a great game - enjoying it a lot
Quote:
4.1.2 – Control: A unit controls all the hexes in its ZOC, unless a hex is also in an enemy ZOC. In this case, it is a disputed hex. No side controls a disputed hex, unless only one of them has units in the hex (note ZOCs do apply in-hex).
From that, since you can only use sea transport to a friendly/allied naval base or port, I'd say Shanghai doesn't qualify.
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Björn Engqvist
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I think the solution is even simpler than that:

6.0 Turn 0 special rules, first bullet: "At the start of Turn 0, KMT, CCP, and Japanese units are stacked together in certain hexes. These hexes are all considered to be under KMT control."
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Wendell
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Leonard wrote:
Right, the hex is KMT control (answering rules questions on both games with similar subject is confusing some time).

However, Japan can still transport the 3rd division to Shanghai with amphibious landing under defensive reserve movement, but need to adjust CRT 1 row to the left.
Wait - are you implying that Japan can do AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULTS during the KMT's activation as a DEFENSIVE RESERVE MOVEMENT?

Is that really the intent? Your answer's comment "shift CRT 1 to the left" contradicts that since the -1 column applies to a unit making an amphibious ATTACK (which this isn't by the J's).
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Leonard To
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Sorry for the confusion. I have deleted the previous comments and will post a final rule on this tomorrow. Before that, there is another errata: The Japanese HQ in Shanghai should be Central China Area Army (C China AA), Not MGr Army in Mini Scenario 1.

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Leonard To
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Errata 2:
6.0 At the start of Turn 0, KMT, CCP, and Japanese units are stacked together in certain hexes. These hexes are considered to be initially under KMT control for RP and VP calculations, but otherwise considered being controlled by both sides with at least 1 unit in the contested hex.


It is therefore ok to transport 3rd Div in defensive response movement.


Historically, IJA 3rd Div landed around Shanghai on Aug 23, 1937.


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Leonard To
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While the chance of KMT taking Shanghai is slim (as history has shown), the gain of occupying Shanghai is significant. For a short 3 turns game like "Fist of Fury", the Japanese will have a hard time taking back Shanghai and also occupy Nanking in the remaining 2 turns.
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Wendell
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Leonard wrote:
Errata 2:
6.0 At the start of Turn 0, KMT, CCP, and Japanese units are stacked together in certain hexes. These hexes are considered to be initially under KMT control for RP and VP calculations, but otherwise considered being controlled by both sides with at least 1 unit in the contested hex.

It is therefore ok to transport 3rd Div in defensive response movement.
That almost completely eliminates any possibility of the KMT capturing Shanghai, unless the Japan player is completely asleep at the wheel. It basically means the KMT player probably won't even make the (somewhat risky) attempt that Chiang actually made in summer '37. Is that desirable?
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Leonard To
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As I said, it is very risky, but may still worth it if you feel lucky. Taking Shanghai means KMT have a good chance of winning the scenario.

In the campaign game, the benefits of doing that is much lower. As Japan can easily retake it later.

That is the original intention of the design. But I am all ears if you have other suggestion.
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Wendell
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Leonard wrote:
As I said, it is very risky, but may still worth it if you feel lucky. Taking Shanghai means KMT have a good chance of winning the scenario.

In the campaign game, the benefits of doing that is much lower. As Japan can easily retake it later.

That is the original intention of the design. But I am all ears if you have other suggestion.
Well with that Japanese division being able to reinforce Shanghai with defensive reserve movement I think it an attack goes from risky to all-but-impossible. There ARE benefits to taking it even in the campaign game when you know it can't be held long-term - you can then move that 5-DEP factory to some place safer and use it.
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Leonard To
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Yes, Shanghai has the largest factory!
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Wendell
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I'll (maybe) set myself straight. Turn 0 special rules say:

Quote:
Because of restrictions imposed by the Japanese government, Japanese
units may move and attack within the five northern provinces of
Hopeh, Chahar, Shantung, Suiyuan, and Shansi only on turn 0. This
restriction is cancelled in territories (and only in those territories)
where a Japanese unit has previously been attacked during the turn. No
IJN ground units, air units, and fleets can be activated before Turn 1,
unless the KMT attacks any of them during Turn 0. Should any IJN
unit be attacked, all IJN units may immediately be activated on turn 0.
Shanghai is not in one of those listed territories so if the KMT attacks Shanghai and that is the first attack in that territory, that nasty Japanese DIV in the Western Pacific Holding Box can't move in (by defensive reserve move in this example) because there hasn't been a PREVIOUS attack in Kiangsu (this is the first).

Right?
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