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Subject: replayability rating? rss

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Mr Dove
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I was recently discussing with my wife that some game reviewers include "replayability" in their general rating of a game.

We both disagree with that approach to rating a game. We used Ticket to Ride as an example in our discussion because we both really enjoy the game. We think it is alot of fun to play with lots of good features but we also feel that it lacks replayability. We both got bored with is after about 5 plays.

Now, we would never dream of letting this affect our rating of the game. We still love it and would still rate it at 8+

Now, has it ever been considered to add replayability as a seperate category when listing a game like how "weight" was recently added? I can see two ways of classifying the replayability of a game.

1. Give it a numeric value from 1-5 or 1-10 based on replayability in relation to other games. Pretty much the same way other ratings work. Rather abstract.

2. Give it a number based on how many plays you can get out of it before it starts to get stale. 1 play, 2 plays, 5 plays, 10 plays, 25+. You obviously have to put a cap on where the highest value would be. 10 plays is probably too low. 25 or 50 might be a good spot to put the cap.

Please discuss.
 
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Yeah, If I rate a game a 10, it's highly replayable. If I rate it a 5 or below, it's not replayable. cool
 
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Michel Condoroussis
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My rating for Ticket to Ride is fairly high and this is due to many reasons (see my review), but I find that you can replay it a lot. I have played over 400 times and still play a lot, especially online. If you play with the same person all the time, any game can get boring. All my reviews include this replay factor in the final score, that is why I like to play games at least 3-5 times before writing a review. But if a game gets boring too quickly, I think you should reflect this in your score.

Pezpimp
 
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pronoblem baalberith
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It is part of the regular rating.

10 - Outstanding. Always want to play and expect this will never change.
9 - Excellent game. Always want to play it.
8 - Very good game. I like to play. Probably I'll suggest it and will never turn down a game.
7 - Good game, usually willing to play.
6 - Ok game, some fun or challenge at least, will play sporadically if in the right mood.
5 - Average game, slightly boring, take it or leave it.
4 - Not so good, it doesn't get me but could be talked into it on occasion.
3 - Likely won't play this again although could be convinced. Bad.
2 - Extremely annoying game, won't play this ever again.
1 - Defies description of a game. You won't catch me dead playing this. Clearly broken.
 
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I agree the guide lines for the ratings, imply replayablitity in them...

10 - Outstanding. Always want to play and expect this will never change.
9 - Excellent game. Always want to play it.
8 - Very good game. I like to play. Probably I'll suggest it and will never turn down a game.
7 - Good game, usually willing to play.
6 - Ok game, some fun or challenge at least, will play sporadically if in the right mood.
5 - Average game, slightly boring, take it or leave it.
4 - Not so good, it doesn't get me but could be talked into it on occasion.
3 - Likely won't play this again although could be convinced. Bad.
2 - Extremely annoying game, won't play this ever again.
1 - Defies description of a game. You won't catch me dead playing this. Clearly broken

If the game has low replayability it is automatically disqualified from gitting a 7 or higher, especially if people re-evaluate the rating after playing a game.
 
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Mr Dove
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I understand that "some people" do this. My argument is that replayability should be considered seperately from "game quality".

Consider the fact that replayability is pretty unrelated to the quality of gameplay. I've played plenty of outstanding games that I rate highly despite the fact that they get dull after X number of plays.

How many outstanding games have poor ratings merely because some players have ADD and got bored after 1 play?

If you want to argue that replayability is already of part of the rating system please explain why it should remain that way or why rating replayability seperately is inappropriate.
 
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pronoblem,

You beat me to it.
 
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George Kinney
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So you'd still 'probably suggest' and 'never turn down a game' even though you find it dull and repetitive?

Personally I can't see a reason to even own a game that isn't highly replayable, let alone rate it highly.
 
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pronoblem baalberith
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Mr_Dove wrote:
Consider the fact that replayability is pretty unrelated to the quality of gameplay. I've played plenty of outstanding games that I rate highly despite the fact that they get dull after X number of plays.


I think quite the opposite. Quality of gameplay is directly related to the rating that I give and with consideration of replayability. If it becomes dull after X plays then it would be reevaluated with a new rating.
 
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Mr_Dove wrote:
If you want to argue that replayability is already of part of the rating system please explain why it should remain that way or why rating replayability seperately is inappropriate.


I personally don't care what the ratings mean, as long as we all have a clear understanding of what they mean. The powers that be have decided the the ratings mean that which has been listed above. If they choose to change it I'll re-evaluate my game ratings. Some how I doubt they will do that. So I don't really see anything to debate other than trying to get people to follow the guidelines so that there is some clear understanding of what a games rating means.
 
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Emile de Maat
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I feel that replayability is a factor in a games' quality, and therefore does not need to taken out of the quality rating.

Weight, on the other hand, is not part of a games' quality (it can of course be correlated to someone's rating if he/she does not like a particulary weight category of games).
 
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Richard Irving
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No, no, no, no, no, no! You want to repeat the garbage that is "weight rating". The worst thing about BGG--to much voting on things that no one knows what they really mean: weight, "Sibling" or "related" games, etc.

There is no reason to include a "replayability rating" for the same reason that weight rating is such a poor measure--different people will have different biased opinions on which game is replayable and depending on who submits the ratings will forever muddy the results.

For example, I might not like a particular game. For me, the replayability rating would be very low. What does that say about the replayability of the game? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! My opinion is biased.

What exactly does this say that the basic rating doesn't say? I think most people factor replayability into their ratings anyway.

 
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Philip Thomas
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How can a game be a great game if it is only fun to play 5 times?
 
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Mark Reist
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Quote:
Consider the fact that replayability is pretty unrelated to the quality of gameplay. I've played plenty of outstanding games that I rate highly despite the fact that they get dull after X number of plays.


I think this is where your opinion differs from that of others. I would never consider that a game has good gameplay if it lacks replayability. During the creation of any game, the designer needs to ask themselves if the game will be worth playing multiple times, and if not, then why. After all, they are creating a product that people purchase with the expectation of lasting through many plays. Particularly with the type of games thrust to the forefront on BGG, if the strategy isn't engaging enough to keep someone interested through more than a couple plays, something is wrong.

The example that someone brought up with Munchkin was a good one. Almost everyone I've spoken to or played with has really liked it after one play, because while it is mechanically weak, it really is quite amusing. Then by about the second (or possibly third) play, the humour wears thin and the relatively random gameplay generally causes people to grow tired of it. So, does it deserve a good rating based on the first play, or upon its merits as a game. Nobody buys a game expecting to play it twice.
 
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In my mind board games and video games are very different when it comes to replayability.

In a board game, I expect it to BE replayable and if it is NOT I'm disapointed.
In a video game, I expect it to NOT be replayable and if it IS I'm pleasantly suprised.

Most video games tell a story and are more like a book. A good book you will read over and over, must most books you just read once. (I don't compare it to a movie because of the time investment which is what makes books or video games less likely to be reread/replayed than a movie)

Now the sports video games are different, but neither I nor my husband play those, so those don't come into my thinking.
 
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Melsana wrote:

Most video games tell a story and are more like a book. A good book you will read over and over, must most books you just read once. (I don't compare it to a movie because of the time investment which is what makes books or video games less likely to be reread/replayed than a movie)

Now the sports video games are different, but neither I nor my husband play those, so those don't come into my thinking.


Well at that point is where my definition of a video "game" is different than the industry. A video game like myst, which would not have replayability after solving it, I wouldn't consider a "game" but a "puzzle". If it reads like a book, it's not a game, it's a puzzle. And puzzles don't need replayablility.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Melsana wrote:

Most video games tell a story and are more like a book. A good book you will read over and over, must most books you just read once. (I don't compare it to a movie because of the time investment which is what makes books or video games less likely to be reread/replayed than a movie)

Now the sports video games are different, but neither I nor my husband play those, so those don't come into my thinking.


Well at that point is where my definition of a video "game" is different than the industry. A video game like myst, which would not have replayability after solving it, I wouldn't consider a "game" but a "puzzle". If it reads like a book, it's not a game, it's a puzzle. And puzzles don't need replayablility.


That is a really good way to describe it.

Would a first person shooter, like Halo, be a puzzle then?

Of course I like doing the Rubic's cube over and over again.. so even a puzzle can have replayability, although most don't.
 
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Melsana wrote:


Would a first person shooter, like Halo, be a puzzle then?

Of course I like doing the Rubic's cube over and over again.. so even a puzzle can have replayability, although most don't.



I guess it depends on how you play it. Single player scenario, that a walkthrough can be made for it, I'd say puzzle. Multiplayer deathmatch, game.

The rubiks cube is a variable puzzle. Like sudoku. Each iteration is a new puzzle. You aren't solving one iteration over and over, but many. So the replay value is solving a new puzzle each time.
 
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Mr Dove
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I appreciate the additional discussion that we're having here even though we don't all agree.

I just think that rating a game with only a single number makes it more difficult for a prospective player to pinpoint the games flaws. I spend literally hours reading reviews and comments on games trying to figure out why it may be rated low.

A rating system that rates aspects of the game seperately could "potentially" make it easier to pin down games that we would enjoy. Another example this: I know plenty of people who seriously dislike certain themes and will rate them poorly because they dislike fantasy themes or wargame themes. Some really dislike a particular mechanic.

Here is a good example of what a review "could" be that I took from someone's "ticket to ride" review.



This might be too much but you can't deny that it provides more information at a glance than just a single number (well I suppose you "could" deny it if you really wanted to)
 
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I agree 100% with you Mr Dove. More ratings categories give more info, and I would love to see them.

It suprises me how many people lash out against quality of ratings on BGG. They should go check out somewhere like Amazon for a comparison-- All 5s and 0s. And yet even those average scores give you some information.
 
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Mark Wilder
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I agree with Mr_Dove as well, and I in fact started a similar topic today (link below). In addition to replayability, I suggested metrics for Conflict, Luck, Strategy, Tactics, and Theme. I think the above mentioned Setup/Rules (and maybe an additional Learning Curve) and Components/Bits are good measures, too.

My thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/805778#805778
 
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Mark Wilder
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When I do my ratings, I don't follow the guidelines to the letter, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that line of thinking. My ratings take into account lots of things: how it fits my particular gaming preferences, how much fun it is for me, how much I like the theme, etc. Looking at the rating number and saying it's a direct reflection of replayability isn't valid, because a rating takes so many things into account. To me the overall rating of a game is just a measure of how it stacks up to other games in how well it's liked.

I guess another observation is that, while some people think replayability is built-in to the overall rating, What's the harm in breaking it out? If there are measurements of WHY a game got rated the way it did by measuring the major categories that go into a rating, then the user could, if they wanted to, see how a game stacks up in a variety of categories. And if someone didn't care what people thought, then they could just ignore that particular corner of their computer monitor altogether and not use the system. Hell, with the geek being so modular now, you could probably have a way to turn it off if you wanted to.
 
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Brian Morris
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Ok I really like this idea and I really like the visual Mr Dove included.
 
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