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Subject: Eliminating Musketeers (or Artillery) during the movement phase. rss

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Steve Bishop
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I realise I may be very lucky to get an answer for this now but here goes!

Rule I 1. states that a friendly Infantry or Cavalry unit beginning its movement phase adjacent to enemy Artillery or Musketeers may move onto the enemy piece and eliminate it.
However only if this does not violate any of the normal movement rules.

Normally you can't move from one ZOC to another so if the Musketeers (or arty) are in another units ZOC is this prohibited, despite the fact that the first ZOC may only be that of the musketeers itself?

This is also slightly complicated by I 3. that allows cavalry to ride down Musketeers even if they are in another friendly Musketeers ZOC.
It suggests a line of Musketeers could stand up to an opposing line of Infantry but not Cavalry.

Any help appreciated.
 
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Kim Meints
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Steve

It's been awhile(OK, years) since I last played the game but got it out to refresh my memory(it was a real favorite when it first came out)

Yes, If you had a line of Musketeers and none where in another friendly units ZoC(Inf,Cav or Art)and only in another friendly musketeers then the enemy Cavalry can Ride them down

If the Musketeer was in a ZoC of another unit type they would get to fire at the enemy cavalry first

I so loved this game and even Excalibre's Edgehill because of the subject matter but also for my love of UK made wargames which still to this day have a certain charm about them
 
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Steve Bishop
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Kim,

thanks for the reply, I bought this on Ebay recently and have just set it up so eager to give it a go.

I'm still not sure about rule I 1. tho' perhaps an example might clarify.

Lets say the Parliamentarian infantry have advanced up to the Royalist line and the Royalists haven't moved. We will now have a situation where each Musketeer in the Royalist line will have an adjacent enemy infantry unit. Assuming they all survive until the next Parliamentarian movement phase can the Parliament infantry (starting adjacent) move into and eliminate the musketeers or do the ZOC's of the Royalist infantry and Artillery units in the next row of hexes behind prevent this.

i.e. you can't move from one ZOC to another even though the original ZOC is that if the musketeers themselves.
In this case the attacking infantry would then have to attempt eliminations by dice throws in the combat phase.


 
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Kim Meints
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Steve

In the Example,If the Royalist Musketeers survive then in the Parliamentarian movement they may move into the Royalist Musket units and eliminate them.

Parliamentarian Cavalry also in this example wouldn't be able to Run Down the Muskets since they have other units behind them so could only enter the Muskets hex to eliminate them.


I just know I'm going to end up setting the game up and playing it.


I thought the Musketeer "Forlorn Hope" units were a neat & novel idea and very historical. Good speed bumps but also able to disrupt their foe before they hit the main line. Somewhat good as flank protection in a pinch
 
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Steve Bishop
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I'm still not sure about this Kim, maybe I'm reading more into it than there is.

Lets look at this situation and assume it's the Parliamentarian move phase.



There are a couple of Musketeers adjacent to enemy Cavalry units but as they are in their own cavalry ZOCs they cannot be ridden down.

I also don't think they can be eliminated by the enemy cavalry moving on to them because the Parliamentarian cavalry would be moving from one ZOC of control to another (the flanking Royalist cav). Therefore the only way to get rid of them is to attack them in the combat phase.

The more I think about this the more I think the situation in I 1. is to cover that where the Musketeers have left the support of their own lines and are no longer in any friendly ZOC's.

If only the designer was a member of BGG
 
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Kim Meints
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Steve

Correct,They couldn't be Riden Down since they're in their own Cav's ZoC

And now seeing real units(I was imaging a straight front line of nothing but Royalist Musketeers-forgot about the darn game set up)

So Yes, with the picture as shown the Parliamentarian cav would have to make a normal attack on the Musket units
 
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Steve Bishop
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Hey Kim,

I'm in the process of creating a Vassal module for this game, how would you fancy a PBEM game once I get it finished (should be tomorrow)?

We could also play online but I suspect the 6 hour time difference might prove to be a bit of a barrier there.

Steve
 
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Kim Meints
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Steve

Might have to wait a bit. I have 3 playtesting projects going on right now

But I know fans of the game will rejoice with the news of a new Vassal mod coming soon.And Thanks for the hard work on it
 
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Barry Ingram
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bishuk wrote:
I'm still not sure about this Kim, maybe I'm reading more into it than there is.

Lets look at this situation and assume it's the Parliamentarian move phase.



There are a couple of Musketeers adjacent to enemy Cavalry units but as they are in their own Cavalry ZOCs they cannot be ridden down.

I also don't think they can be eliminated by the enemy Cavalry moving on to them because the Parliamentarian Cavalry would be moving from one ZOC of control to another (the flanking Royalist cav). Therefore the only way to get rid of them is to attack them in the combat phase.

The more I think about this the more I think the situation in I 1. is to cover that where the Musketeers have left the support of their own lines and are no longer in any friendly ZOC's.

If only the designer was a member of BGG


Unfortunately Steve's example above has all the Musketeers alongside friendly Cavalry such that the Parliamentary Cavalry are starting IN the ZOC of the Royalist Cavalry alongside the Mustekeers.
I think the real question is whether a Parliamentary (Cav or Inf) unit that starts adjacent to a Musketeer, in the Musketeer's ZOC, can move onto the Musketeer if there is a Royalist Inf or Cav adjacent but behind the Musketeer. In other words, The attacker starts in a Musketeer's ZOC ONLY and moves onto the Musketeer into the ZOC of the Royalist Inf or Cav behind.
I believe this would still contravene the movement rule that states a unit starting in an enemy ZOC must remain there with exceptions listed that go on to say the exceptions can only move out if the first hex moved into is free of enemy ZOCs.
So a line of Royalist Musketeers in front of a line of Royalist Infantry, for example, could not be ridden down by Roundhead Cavalry and/or moved onto by adjacent Parliamentarian Infantry.

That's how I read this in relation to the Musketeer Units.
I see the supporting Inf and/or Cav just being adjacent as sufficient to prevent any enemy unit just moving onto a Musketeer unit.

Happy to be proved wrong if there is anyone out there that knows better.

Thanks.
 
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Steve Bishop
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It’s an interesting argument and I can see both points of view here, I suppose we should be trying to work out what the design intent was. So let’s look at what is typically going to happen as the Parliamentarian line rumbles forward.

If we assume a line of Royalist Musketeers in front of their own infantry (so no Musketeers are interspersed as they are with the cavalry in the above example), each Musketeer unit is 60 men and the advancing Parliamentarian infantry are 500 men probably in the ratio of at least two musket to every pike armed infantryman, so about 330 muskets in the infantry unit, more than five times that of the Musketeers ‘Forlorn Hope’.

The pike/musket block advances adjacent and before combat the Royalist Musketeers get to take a shot, if it is their first they need 5 or 6 to hit. In the Parliamentarian combat phase any undisrupted pike/musket now gets to fight but they don’t use the normal CRT; this is because there is no way the Forlorn Hope is going to take them on hand to hand, they will be falling back in front of the pikes and I presume the 4 to 6 the pike/muskets need to hit them represents the volume of fire from the musket blocks.

On to the next Parliamentarian turn and now if the musketeers haven’t fired and moved away they are between the forces of the main infantry lines. The Parliament pike/musket blocks now advance and there is no way the forlorn hope units can stand up to this they would just disintegrate as each unit of 500 men sweep them aside.
Now whether they should be counted as eliminated or not is another matter, would they be incorporated into the infantry behind them, have they done their job and just leave to the rear, or do they flee the field?

The reason I think the infantry can advance and eliminate the Musketeers is a sort of negative logic, why have the rule in the first place if its only use is against single isolated Musketeer units that are not in ANY other units ZOC and then specifically explain the cavalry rule in I 3.


 
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Barry Ingram
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I'm not that familiar with this period of military history so cannot really give insightful comment to what the designer may or may not have intended to simulate. All I can do is follow the COWTRA principle i.e. concentrate on what the rules allow.

I think you have it nailed in one of your earlier posts where you said...

bishuk wrote:


The more I think about this the more I think the situation in I 1. is to cover that where the Musketeers have left the support of their own lines and are no longer in any friendly ZOC's.

If only the designer was a member of BGG


So a line of musketeers, out front and separated from any (adjacent) support of non musketeers units, would be vulnerable to be 'ridden down' by enemy cavalry, but would provide mutual support against adjacent enemy infantry if they stand adjacent. Add to this the additional adjacent line of Royalist infantry behind them and again, I think it is the case that the Parliamentarian infantry cannot move onto the mustekeer unit because they have the mutual (adjacent) support of their own infantry.

Given the rules for combat no musketeer unit is going to last more than (on average) 2 turns standing to face adjacent enemy infantry so I would suggest this is not unreasonable in terms of the game-play and likely outcome if they are used just to stand and delay.

It seems we have an impasse
 
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