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Subject: Atheist monument is more American than Ten Commandments rss

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M. Freeman
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"What could possibly justify this outlandish claim? How about this for starters? The atheist monument contains quotes from the founding fathers. The Ten Commandments do not.

Here's the one that might just be the most salient:
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion... -- Treaty of Tripoli

The Treaty of Tripoli was read, signed, and enthusiastically presented to the American people by none other than President John Adams. The second president. The Massachusetts delegate to the Continental Congress. A founding father. The monument will feature other founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. So right out of the gate, it's self-evidently true that this monument has more to do with American History than the Ten Commandments, which were specifically and purposefully excluded from any founding documents.

But what about the Ten Commandments? They're the foundation of American law and life, right? Well, no. They're not. In fact, they're antithetical to nearly everything we stand for. Don't believe me? Well, please, read on.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. This is as blatantly unconstitutional as it can get. Regardless of whether the founding fathers were deists, Christians, or atheists, they were in clear agreement that the U.S. would be a place where one could worship any or no gods without fear of government retribution.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Well, no. It's perfectly legal in the U.S. to make any graven image you like.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. Um… we will if we feel like it. There’s no law, and no constitutional justification for any law making libel or slander against a deity illegal.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Nice thought. So, I expect we’ll be seeing good Christian legislation making it illegal for Walmart to open on Sundays, right? No?

5. Honour thy father and thy mother. Again, it’s a nice thought. But it’s not part of our constitution. In fact, we have a government sponsored agency whose job is to determine when children need to be taken from their parents and placed in foster care.

6. Thou shalt not kill. We needed a dictate from God to figure this one out? It’s part of every legal code in the world.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Nobody’s recommending it, but the police aren’t going to knock down your door over it. This is a matter for civil courts. It’s not illegal.

8. Thou shalt not steal. Solid advice, and part of the criminal code. It's also in every criminal code in existence, Christian or not.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. These days we call it perjury, and guess what… It’s in every lawbook in the world.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. This is probably the most ridiculous of the ten. To “covet” basically means to want it really bad. And there’s obviously no law against wanting stuff your neighbor owns. Are we going to get the thought police out to enforce this one?

Only 30% of the Ten Commandments coincide with American law. More notably, the three moral instructions are found in every law code in the world, including Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, and Secular governments. There is absolutely nothing inherently Christian about them. As a final kick in the teeth, murder, perjury, and theft are covered by the criminal law code -- not the Constitution. So... what does that leave for the Constitution to take from the Ten Commandments? Not a single thing. Not one."

http://www.examiner.com/article/atheist-monument-is-more-ame...

Poll
Should religious monuments should be allowed on government property?
Yes, but only Christian.
Yes, any religion.
No, none whatsoever. Keep church and state separate.
Don’t care.
      109 answers
Poll created by Throxx



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Dave G
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What's this a response to? I don't disagree with the points raised, but I feel like you're replying to something and I have no context here.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
What's this a response to? I don't disagree with the points raised, but I feel like you're replying to something and I have no context here.
Throxx wrote:
tl;dr
A Florida county has the 10 Commandments outside of their government building. American Atheist group sued to have them removed, the county settled instead for leaving the Commandments, but allowing other religious monuments as well.
So the atheist group decided to erect a monument to secularism.
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M. Freeman
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utoption2 wrote:
Oh dude, you copied the article almost straight out. You should have at least used quote marks. Can't you come with you own ideas?
Throxx wrote:
"What could possibly..... Not one."
Dude, I did.
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Steve Armitstead
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Throxx wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
Oh dude, you copied the article almost straight out. You should have at least used quote marks. Can't you come with you own ideas?
Throxx wrote:
"What could possibly..... Not one."
Dude, I did.
Yes you did, but I missed them and was flabbergasted by your BRILLIANT article laugh

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fightcitymayor
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I find the fetishization of the Ten Commandments to be an odd obsession for many of the reasons stated here. When I see the Ten Commandments posted in a public place I usually interpret it as a not-so-subtle "READ THE BIBLE OR DIE, SCUMFUCK!" sort of sign.



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M. Freeman
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utoption2 wrote:
Throxx wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
Oh dude, you copied the article almost straight out. You should have at least used quote marks. Can't you come with you own ideas?
Throxx wrote:
"What could possibly..... Not one."
Dude, I did.
Oh, oh, I see it, I withdraw that comment. You did something even more impressive, you just copied the bulk of the article and attached a poll.

Sorry for mistake.

Did you have any commentary or independent cognitive thought or should I/we do that for you?
Seriously? You have nothing better to do than to critique how much of an article I quoted? I just posted part of the article and place a poll.
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Josiah Fiscus
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I'm a devout Christian and I absolutely hate seeing the 10 commandments used this way. At the very least, it's nonsensical since most of them have nothing to do with our judicial system (as the article points out). I love the 10 commandments, but they don't belong in American law.
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Ben Vincent
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Throxx wrote:
Seriously? You have nothing better to do than to critique how much of an article I quoted?
Since most of us here are avoiding work and reading/posting about politics and religion on a boardgame website, where most "conversation" amounts to sniping at opposing viewpoints... That seems like a silly question.
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Ben Vincent
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I didn't answer the poll, but I think some religious monuments are perfectly appropriate in certain places. For example: cemeteries, battlefield memorials, or commemoration of historical events that had religious influences. Posting the Ten Commandments at a courthouse seems inappropriate to me, but it also doesn't bother me all that much, unless its paid for with public funds.
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happyjosiah wrote:
I love the 10 commandments, but they don't belong in American law.
do you really love the 10 commandments or are you just pointing at things outside the government building and saying that you love them?
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Dave G
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SabreRedleg wrote:
I didn't answer the poll, but I think some religious monuments are perfectly appropriate in certain places. For example: cemeteries, battlefield memorials, or commemoration of historical events that had religious influences. Posting the Ten Commandments at a courthouse seems inappropriate to me, but it also doesn't bother me all that much, unless its paid for with public funds.
This is the tipping point for me. I'm an atheist and I don't love overt displays of religion because I think they're silly, but I don't really care about this kind of story unless we're talking about something that's paid for or maintained with public funding. Then it's not only bothersome as a failure on a constitutional level, it's also a stupid fucking way to spend tax money.
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Dave G
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single sentences wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
I love the 10 commandments, but they don't belong in American law.
do you really love the 10 commandments or are you just pointing at things outside the government building and saying that you love them?
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Josiah Fiscus
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
judeo-christian
Cue Moshe in 3...2...1...
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Scott Russell
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If tax money has to be used for art (which I oppose), it doesn't bother me if some of the art depicts religious symbols.

Interesting point above about the paying for maintenance of donated art. I'd prefer that to be paid by voluntary contributions as well, but it's a greyer area.
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happyjosiah wrote:
Euroncrowseye wrote:
judeo-christian
Cue Moshe in 3...2...1...
He's not worth the effort.
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Dave G
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utoption2 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
SabreRedleg wrote:
I didn't answer the poll, but I think some religious monuments are perfectly appropriate in certain places. For example: cemeteries, battlefield memorials, or commemoration of historical events that had religious influences. Posting the Ten Commandments at a courthouse seems inappropriate to me, but it also doesn't bother me all that much, unless its paid for with public funds.
This is the tipping point for me. I'm an atheist and I don't love overt displays of religion because I think they're silly, but I don't really care about this kind of story unless we're talking about something that's paid for or maintained with public funding. Then it's not only bothersome as a failure on a constitutional level, it's also a stupid fucking way to spend tax money.
Stupid question, Dave, but once the darn thing is in place, how money does it take to maintain?
Probably not much--I'm not talking about cleaning or whatever, I was thinking of major repairs/replacements/other ways the government blows money.
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Dave G
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Euroncrowseye wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
it's also a stupid fucking way to spend tax money.
How do you feel about government architecture? Should it be along the lines of Le Corbusiers famous statement about housing ('A machine for living in'), or should it aspire to be more than merely functional?

In that case, remembering the Judeo-Christian heritage of your nation, what's the best form of decoration appropriate to the role of courts as administrators of law and by extension morality? The book of Leviticus is rather unwieldy. The ten commandments are instantly recognisable.

You can disagree with their choice but it's perfectly reasonable as an expression of American culture.
Blow yourself.
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Junior McSpiffy
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Throxx wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
Throxx wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
Oh dude, you copied the article almost straight out. You should have at least used quote marks. Can't you come with you own ideas?
Throxx wrote:
"What could possibly..... Not one."
Dude, I did.
Oh, oh, I see it, I withdraw that comment. You did something even more impressive, you just copied the bulk of the article and attached a poll.

Sorry for mistake.

Did you have any commentary or independent cognitive thought or should I/we do that for you?
Seriously? You have nothing better to do than to critique how much of an article I quoted? I just posted part of the article and place a poll.
Seriously? The guy who had nothing better to do than copy an article and attach a poll had nothing better to do than criticize the guy who criticized the guy who quoted an article and attached a poll for criticizing ....

Wait, I just lost my place. Let me start over....
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William Boykin
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So with everything going on with the revelations of the NSA security state revealed by Snowden, self proclaimed civil libertarians in Florida are worked up about....

....getting an Atheist monument put up outside a courthouse?

You gotta love these 'faux' social issues that get people's energy and effort distracted from, oh, I don't know, SOMETHING IMPORTANT??????

Ah well. Go Florida Atheists!! Stick it to the MAN!!! But while you're at it, you might consider doing something about Florida ballot issues.

Thanks!

Yours Truly-
The rest of the fucking USA.

Darilian
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Junior McSpiffy
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So what would the counter-monument look like? Would it be put up by a bunch of dick atheists and be nothing but an arrow pointing at the 10 Commandments with the words "Fuck dat shit!" Would it be a flying spaghetti monster, since most atheists now seem to be meme-based? Maybe something more tasteful and thought-inspiring, a group of people looking up and staring at... nothing. Or maybe the Darwin's Evolution monkey guy walking out of the swamp and eventually growing upright?

Having a counter-monument is nice and all, but they better hit a home run with it. I would hate for angry, self-important atheists to just give more fodder to the people who laugh at their angry, self-important selves.

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Srsly, why don't those guys do something useful, like post snarky comments on a tiny subforum of a niche hobby website?

It's like Ghandi said:
"Complain impotently on the internet about the change you wish to see other people make in the world."

Or something.
I may be paraphrasing.
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GameCrossing wrote:
So what would the counter-monument look like?
Quote:
It’s a granite bench engraved with secularist quotes.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/04/americas-first-public-mo...
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das Andere wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
So what would the counter-monument look like?
Quote:
It’s a granite bench engraved with secularist quotes.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/04/americas-first-public-mo...
I hope we get a list of these quotes. I'm guessing there will be fewer of them based on uplifting humanity and more about freeing humanity from the oppressive bondage owed to some giant sky wizard. Hope I'm wrong... but I doubt it.

Edit to add:
Quote:
The bench will also feature quotes from the Bible listing punishments for breaking the Ten Commandments, like execution—a move that’s designed to “make it clear that the Ten Commandments are not the ‘great moral code’ they’re often portrayed to be,” as American Atheists Public Relations Director Dave Muscato has said.
Wow, right there in the article. Who knew I would be -that- right?
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GameCrossing wrote:
I'm guessing there will be fewer of them based on uplifting humanity and more about freeing humanity from the oppressive bondage owed to some giant sky wizard.
Aren't those both the same thing?
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