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Subject: Disappointing that they added such randomness to the expansion. rss

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UA Darth
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So many cards, exposed only 3 at a time, could have a huge imbalancing/luck effect on the game. Get a card to come out that just so happens to complement your strategy.. yay you? That isn't skill.

This will be one of the very few games I own without an expansion. Hugely disappointing. Lazy too, imo.
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Neil Christiansen
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I think it not laziness per se, but catering to a different type of gamer. One can easily argue that one or the other strategy at a game like this is superior and an expansion needs to increase replayability.

Note that I am not of this camp as my favorite games hit the table every few months or so.

But some arguer this for the game in question. The expansion adds variability, and therefore "luck". Some may want this, others may not.

Personally, I bought the expansion but haven't used it because every time I play we are teaching new players. And likely always will be.
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UA Darth
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The base game is very low luck, so it would make sense to me to make an expansion continuing along those lines... It just seems like a waste.
 
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Max Lampinen
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If you don't need additional replayability (which can't be achieved without randomness) then don't buy it. That's why it's optional expansion. I lost interest in Village after 2 games so for me it was essential..
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UA Darth
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max_s wrote:
If you don't need additional replayability (which can't be achieved without randomness) then don't buy it. That's why it's optional expansion. I lost interest in Village after 2 games so for me it was essential..


There are tons of ways to add more to a game(replayability) without adding a huge luck factor. If I wanted luck in a game, I'd play one of the billions of other games with luck. The Village was appealing because of the lack of luck. This is why I don't understand why they decided to add a ton of luck to an expansion.
 
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Richard Ham
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Get a card to come out that just so happens to complement your strategy.. yay you?

Actually, all the cards seem to complement pretty much any strategy. Plus the fact that whenever you use the pub, you have 4 cards to choose from means you'll always be able to pull a card that benefits you in what you're trying to do. So I'm not sure how much luck of the draw there is there. And since the cards have variable costs, I would think they're all balanced against each other?
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UA Darth
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rahdo wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
Get a card to come out that just so happens to complement your strategy.. yay you?

Actually, all the cards seem to complement pretty much any strategy. Plus the fact that whenever you use the pub, you have 4 cards to choose from means you'll always be able to pull a card that benefits you in what you're trying to do. So I'm not sure how much luck of the draw there is there. And since the cards have variable costs, I would think they're all balanced against each other?


The Village is a very tight game with no luck. Even the slightest variance based on luck could ruin the game. There is no chance that all 30 cards complement all strategies equally...

Cards are just completely unnecessary, and they don't fit with this type of low luck game. It just seems like a lazy cash in. The game was pretty generic to begin with... This just makes it potential even more limited.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Well, isn't it fortunate that all that naughty luck is in an optional expansion.

B>
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Max Lampinen
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shadow9d9 wrote:
There are tons of ways to add more to a game(replayability) without adding a huge luck factor. .

Tons, really? I can't think of single game that would have good replayability without some random factor.. Take Rosenberg games.. pretty good example of serious modern euros, I'm sure you wouldn't call them luckfests.. But look.. Agricola and Le Havre have random cards and they're played lots and lots, Ora et Labora doesn't and unsurprisingly it isn't played nearly as much despite being in top20 too.
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UA Darth
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max_s wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
There are tons of ways to add more to a game(replayability) without adding a huge luck factor. .

Tons, really? I can't think of single game that would have good replayability without some random factor.. Take Rosenberg games.. pretty good example of serious modern euros, I'm sure you wouldn't call them luckfests.. But look.. Agricola and Le Havre have random cards and they're played lots and lots, Ora et Labora doesn't and unsurprisingly it isn't played nearly as much despite being in top20 too.
7
If you can't think of any games with good replayability without random factors, then yoy haven't played about 150 of the games I own... from chicago express to imperial, 18xx, homesteaders, or even an oldie like caylus. You seriously need to expand your horizons if you think luck has anything to do with being replayable!
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Most 18xx titles have random cards.

B>
 
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Bruce Murphy
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max_s wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
There are tons of ways to add more to a game(replayability) without adding a huge luck factor. .

Tons, really? I can't think of single game that would have good replayability without some random factor..


Go?

B>
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Richard Ham
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shadow9d9 wrote:

The Village is a very tight game with no luck.

But that's not really true, is it? Every year, random chance defines what cubes get drawn from the 'bag of learning' and what novices get drawn from the 'bag of recruiting'. And after every sale, new random customers appear as well. All of those things are random variance that has to be accounted for during play. The cards are no different at all. Someone who had decided to go heavy into plows can be affected by how often customers wanting plows come up, and how often skill & knowledge cubes hit the crafts area, vs how many plague cubes hit. Etc.

Quote:
Even the slightest variance based on luck could ruin the game.

And that variance is already there

Quote:
There is no chance that all 30 cards complement all strategies equally...

Nor is there any chance of random cube, chit and meeple draws

But even still, if the cards do bother you exponentially more than all the other random chance in the game, there's a super easy fix:

Do them Le Have style! Pull 9 cards at random out of 30 (but not the one that lets you dig through decks), stack them in 3 piles of 3 cards each, so that all 3 in each pile can be clearly seen (like Le Havre - for more players, go with 12 cards or 15 cards in 3 piles). These can be bought as normal, but the one on top of a stack has to be bought before the middle one is bought, before the bottom one is bought. That would give you plenty to strategic about -- "hmm, if I can get the double scribe, that in turn will save me from having to collect those knowledge cubes, but I'd have to buy the lost child to get to the double scribe. So I'll brew beer now" etc.

I think that simple variant would give you exactly what you want, without harming the new gameplay that the expansion adds!

Just a thought. In fact, thinking about it, that could be a VERY cool way to play!
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UA Darth
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thepackrat wrote:
Most 18xx titles have random cards.

B>


What would be on such cards? None of the ones I've played have... well, 1846 had a crappy draft that I didn't enjoy... which is why I didn't get that one : ).
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Richard made the point that I was going to on Village. It's absolutely not a low luck game. For that matter, neither is Caylus or Homesteaders. Any random elements that are unknown to players from the beginning of the game is going to introduce luck into the game.

More importantly, just because this expansion has more apparent luck than your tolerance level, it absolutely does not mean that it's a "lazy cash in" or a "waste." It just means that they weren't designing the expansion with your play tastes in mind. I think the majority of players are excited about the expansion and strategic elements that it will add to the game.

Some people prefer Agricola w/o cards due to the amount of luck involved with cards, but I think most gamers use the cards because it adds a decent amount of variability and strategic decision making.

It's a personal preference thing.
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Bruce Murphy
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shadow9d9 wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Most 18xx titles have random cards.

B>


What would be on such cards? None of the ones I've played have... well, 1846 had a crappy draft that I didn't enjoy... which is why I didn't get that one : ).


1, 2, 3, 4, ... Perhaps you didn't read the rules carefully.

B>
 
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UA Darth
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Richard made the point that I was going to on Village. It's absolutely not a low luck game. For that matter, neither is Caylus or Homesteaders. Any random elements that are unknown to players from the beginning of the game is going to introduce luck into the game.

More importantly, just because this expansion has more apparent luck than your tolerance level, it absolutely does not mean that it's a "lazy cash in" or a "waste." It just means that they weren't designing the expansion with your play tastes in mind. I think the majority of players are excited about the expansion and strategic elements that it will add to the game.

Some people prefer Agricola w/o cards due to the amount of luck involved with cards, but I think most gamers use the cards because it adds a decent amount of variability and strategic decision making.

It's a personal preference thing.


I was out so I couldn't respond. Sorry, but the game is essentially a no luck game. I will address that further in a second.

Caylus has zero luck/randomness. It has what every game has, which is the chaos of other players' decisions. I play homesteaders with all futures markets, meaning that all future tiles are open for viewing.

Back to the Village, the only luck of note to me is the church draw. This is mitigated by coins, but it is definitely luck based. Luckily, it didn't bother me much. The market has pretty much the same 4 types of goods over and over again, so the variance is low, and there is a future's market to lessen any impact of luck. As for the cubes, there is an abundance of cubes, and everyone pretty much had everything they needed in the three player game(Have no interest in 4). The cubes, while drawn random, are out there on full display, and all you have is very minor and to me, inconsequential chaos.

The game, for me, is 95% luckless.

 
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UA Darth
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thepackrat wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Most 18xx titles have random cards.

B>


What would be on such cards? None of the ones I've played have... well, 1846 had a crappy draft that I didn't enjoy... which is why I didn't get that one : ).


1, 2, 3, 4, ... Perhaps you didn't read the rules carefully.

B>


You'd have to be more specific. I've played 1830, 1889, 18NEB, 18MEX, and 18EU and there were no luck based cards. If you are referring to turn order being, I house rule that to be like MEX, where I believe the first person to pass gets the starting turn order(unlike in 1830). This works for my group. I haven't played an 18xx in a whiiile, so the details are foggy, but that is the gist...
 
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UA Darth
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As for "Do them Le Have style!"

The problem is that adding random cards adds unbalanced abilities that affect different strategies and could come out at just the right time. Seeing the cards ahead of time will lessen it, but it still adds nothing to the game.. just a sloppy overall mechanic that only will diminish the game imo.

They could have gone with something skill based, but they went to luck and cards. It really doesn't surprise me though. We are talking about a game that plays it safe all the way through... It was cute enough, but I'm not sure if the one gimmick it has gonig is enough in the long term. I guess time will tell!
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Before anyone has an opportunity to pass.

B>
 
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Richard Ham
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shadow9d9 wrote:
The problem is that adding random cards adds unbalanced abilities that affect different strategies and could come out at just the right time. Seeing the cards ahead of time will lessen it, but it still adds nothing to the game.. just a sloppy overall mechanic that only will diminish the game imo.

Adds nothing to the game? Additional paths to victory, additional abilities not available in the base game (manipulating time, stealing points from opponents, etc.) I don't quite get your point there... seems like adding a lot of new options for play, but to each their own.

And seeing the cards ahead of time would let you plan different strategies, not lessen them, surely? Like in Caylus, or Le Havre, no?
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rahdo wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
The problem is that adding random cards adds unbalanced abilities that affect different strategies and could come out at just the right time. Seeing the cards ahead of time will lessen it, but it still adds nothing to the game.. just a sloppy overall mechanic that only will diminish the game imo.

Adds nothing to the game? Additional paths to victory, additional abilities not available in the base game (manipulating time, stealing points from opponents, etc.) I don't quite get your point there... seems like adding a lot of new options for play, but to each their own.

And seeing the cards ahead of time would let you plan different strategies, not lessen them, surely? Like in Caylus, or Le Havre, no?


I haven't played Le Havre in a long time. It is nothing even close to Caylus though. It adds a lucky way to complement whatever strategy you have going, if things happen to go your way... again, it is just a lazy way... and have you seen the price they want in order to add such poor and lazy mechanics? Insane!

Oh, and stealing points from opponents is a truly pathetic addition to a low luck game.
 
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Richard Ham
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Well, I guess I don't know what to say at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree it seems. I'm at a loss to understand why you like Village at all, since it has such a heavy dosage of luck though. Maybe you should try Canterbury... seems like it's much more what you're looking for
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Neil Christiansen
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I agree with Richard: Seeing what cards will be available in the queue should add strategy not lessen it.

I have an idea. How about you propose (in detail) an alternative expansion and we will give you feedback on how we believe it compares?
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David desJardins
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shadow9d9 wrote:
There are tons of ways to add more to a game(replayability) without adding a huge luck factor. If I wanted luck in a game, I'd play one of the billions of other games with luck. The Village was appealing because of the lack of luck. This is why I don't understand why they decided to add a ton of luck to an expansion.


I hate it when people make stuff I don't like. Me, me, me. Why on Earth isn't everything all about Me?
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