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Android: Netrunner – Creation and Control» Forums » Rules

Subject: Test Run + Scavenge rss

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Justin K
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If I Test Run for a program and then, before the turn ends, Scavenge it for itself, does the Test Run still 'know' about it and cause it to go back on top of my deck?

In MTG the answer would clearly be 'no', but I'm not sure if ANR works differently in these situations, or even if it's possible to know without an official ruling.

If this trick works, then Test Run + Scavenge installs any program from your stack *or* heap for just the 3 creds, 2 clicks, and 2 cards they cost themselves.
 
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Ian Toltz
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No. Card 'memory' works similarly in ANR as it does to Magic. I don't have a specific citation, but I know I've seen rulings that reinforced this idea in the past.
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Thomas R
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What an interesting question! There are so many timing issues involved, that I'm pretty sure we'll have to wait for an official ruling.

For instance, when you trash a program as an "additional cost" does it end up in your heap immediately, and thus in time to be the target of an effect fueled by that cost, or is the cost paid simultaneously such that the trashed program isn't a valid target for the effect?

Then there's the question of whether a bounce effect like that leaves the program "still installed" for the purposes of Test Run's text.

Not to mention your initial question of whether or not bouncing a card out of and then back into play makes it a "new" card for the purposes of general card effects.

All that said, if you can get a copy into your heap via other means (trashed by a trap, or discarded from your hand), you could still use this combo to Test Run a second copy from your stack and then Scavenge to swap the Test Run copy with the previously trashed one, which is pretty neat all by itself.
 
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João Almeida
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Reading both cards makes me think your combo works, but I believe that the official rulling will be that Scavenge can't install the program trashed to pay its own cost.
 
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Justin K
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Sorry, I glossed over the part about Scavenging programs for themselves because a literal reading of the rulebook clearly allows this (although that is not to say they won't errata/overrule this later):

Quote:
For [click], the Runner plays an event from his hand by paying its
play cost. He then places it faceup in his play area, immediately
resolves the effects of the event, and trashes it.
In particular, it is made clear that you pay all costs, and then resolve all abilities. Since trashing is part of the cost of Scavenge, the card is in your heap in time to be chosen for the effect.
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Adam Perry
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yeah if the words "as an additional cost" weren't in the card, i would venture to argue it wouldn't work, or that it wasn't clear. the way it's worded makes it very apparent of how it's intended to be played.
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James Finkle
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Hraklea wrote:
Reading both cards makes me think your combo works, but I believe that the official rulling will be that Scavenge can't install the program trashed to pay its own cost.
I doubt this, since it doesn't target/lock in before you trash, the program is definitely available to return. It's got some cool implications in terms of resetting choices, enters play abilities, virus counters, etc.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Yes, you can test run, then scavenge, and keep your program.

Also, you can scavenge a femme, return the same femme, to change its target.
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Wesley Austin Kinslow
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Alexfrog wrote:
Yes, you can test run, then scavenge, and keep your program.

Also, you can scavenge a femme, return the same femme, to change its target.
If that works then it is reason enough to run Scavenge.
 
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Daniel Salinas
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Test Run reads:

"When this turn ends, add the program to the top of your stack if it is still installed."

If you Scavenge the same program into and out of the heap, at the end of the turn it is 'still installed' (while it was briefly uninstalled, Test Run only cares that it is 'still installed'). Pretty sure its going to go back on to your stack in this situation, but we'll obviously need a ruling.
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Ben Finkel
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wedgeex wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Yes, you can test run, then scavenge, and keep your program.

Also, you can scavenge a femme, return the same femme, to change its target.
If that works then it is reason enough to run Scavenge.
More reasons:

Refresh your Imp!
Put programs on your Djinn/Dinosaurus/OmniDrive!
Reinstall a virus after a wipe to get a counter on it (when using Grimoire)! Then you can use Surge! And mill more cards as Noise!
 
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James W
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zorba wrote:
Test Run reads:

"When this turn ends, add the program to the top of your stack if it is still installed."

If you Scavenge the same program into and out of the heap, at the end of the turn it is 'still installed' (while it was briefly uninstalled, Test Run only cares that it is 'still installed'). Pretty sure its going to go back on to your stack in this situation, but we'll obviously need a ruling.
This is incorrect. Cards are indistinguishable. If a card leaves the play area and then is somehow brought back to the play area, the card is treated as a new instance, separate from the previous one.

This has already been ruled upon and if you really think about it, it's the only way that does not lead to more complex situations.
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Roberta Yang
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kingjames01 wrote:
This has already been ruled upon and if you really think about it, it's the only way that does not lead to more complex situations.
Yeah, the real problem with the alternative is that it leads to weirdness otherwise. For example: click 1 Test Run to grab a Ninja, click 2 run and have Ninja put on top of your deck by Sherlock 1.0, click 3 draw a card, click 4 install a Ninja. Does the Ninja you installed get put on top of your deck? Can your opponent be sure it's the same Ninja and not just another copy? Maybe the Ninja would only be returned to the top of your deck if your hand is empty?

The only way to avoid bizarre cases like that is to say that every time a card enters play, it's treated as a completely new card.
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Jon Day
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Yes - the game has no memory of board state, each time a card enters play it is a new card. This has already been ruled.
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Pavlos Pavlopoulos
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Who wants to bet that the ruling for scavenge will be that you need to target the program to be installed before you pay the cost? I don't get why people are convinced that you can install the program you sacrificed.
 
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Roberta Yang
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kordan11 wrote:
Who wants to bet that the ruling for scavenge will be that you need to target the program to be installed before you pay the cost? I don't get why people are convinced that you can install the program you sacrificed.
Probably because that's importing a lot of rules baggage from other CCG's like Magic that there's no particular reason to think applies to Netrunner. For example, it's not clear that Netrunner has any concept of targeting; the word "target" appears a grand total of three times in the Netrunner rulebook, and none of them use it in an actual rules context.

Meanwhile, if you weren't supposed to be able to reinstall the same program, you'd think they'd have worded it to say to install "another" program instead of "a" program.

Given a choice between assuming that a card does what it says it does and assuming that a card does what it doesn't say it does but what it might imply if it were a Magic the Gathering card instead of a Netrunner card and you were an expert on Magic's 300-page rulebook, I don't see why you'd be surprised that most people assume the former option.
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Michael Coop
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zorba wrote:
Test Run reads:

"When this turn ends, add the program to the top of your stack if it is still installed."
It seems that Scavenge would not affect the program and so wouldn't go back on top of your deck.
The reason for this line of thinking is one word - STILL. If the ability read:

"When this turn ends, add the program to the top of your stack if it is installed."

...then I'd agree with the program going to the stack. However, the ability seems to read that if the program hasn't gone anywhere before the end of your turn (e.g. stack/heap/grip/hosted on something), then it goes back on the stack. Else, if it goes into another 'zone', then the Test Run has finished.

So, the Test Run ends at either the end of turn or when the program is uninstalled by something.
 
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Vincent van Beelen
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FAQ 1.4 page 2:

Anytime an installed card enters [...] the Runner's grip stack or heap, the card has been "uninstalled".

FAQ 1.4 page 4:

Whenever a card is uninstalled, it has no memory of its previous state and is considered to be a new copy of the card.


With these rulings I'd say: Yes, you are allowed to scavenge a test-run icebreaker without trashing it at the end of your turn.
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