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Subject: Clue allowed?: "This is blue and THESE two are blue..." rss

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Joel Gabelman
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Is the above clue allowed?

You're giving one clue on color, but you're letting the player know that of the 3 blue cards in their hand, two are of the same value and one is different.

Is this allowed?

Similarly, can you say: "These cards (pointing to two) are "3's"; and this card (pointing to one card) is a 3.

This would mean that two 3's are one color, and the other 3 is a different color.

Are these clues allowed???

Thanks!!!!
 
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Chris Casinghino
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We do not allow clues like this in my group. When giving a hint about a group of cards, you are not allowed to single any of them out. We feel that allowing this would make the game too easy by always enabling you to single out the particular card you want played.

That said, every group has their own rules for what sorts of clue-giving conventions are allowed. If you like playing this way, then go for it!
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Jim McMahon
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We would not allow that, as it is really two clues.
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Daniel Corban
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Why would this ever be allowed? It's fairly blatant cheating. If you want to cheat in a coop game, that is depressing.
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Shawna
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Absolutely no.
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Allen OConnor
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Nope. Only:

1) All of one colour

2) All of one number

3) you have no X
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Joel Gabelman
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van00uber wrote:
Nope. Only:

1) All of one colour

2) All of one number

3) you have no X


I didn't think #3 was possible....
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Bruce Padget
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At least in the R&R version, the rules are clear that you must point to a card or cards while giving information, so a clue that a player has none of something is not allowed.
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Adam Kunsemiller
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Is it in the spirit of the rules? No. Is it cheating? Who cares, this is a co-op game and if you guys have fun then mission accomplished.

We consider clues to be simultaneous, so if multiple cards are clued, we point to them all at once. "These are blue" or "These are ones" etc. as opposed to "This, this, and THIS are blue" But that's what works for us, ymmv.
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Martin G
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elmsley4 wrote:
van00uber wrote:
Nope. Only:

1) All of one colour

2) All of one number

3) you have no X


I didn't think #3 was possible....


It is, according to the designer and to the publisher of the German edition: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10273119#10273119
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Chris M
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As someone else said, the R&R Games version specifically states that you are NOT allowed to say you have 0 of something so we play that way.
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Joel Gabelman
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I have the R&R edition.

Ultimately, the goal of the game is to have fun. Still, why is this NOW a rule where you can NOT state there are no "X" cards?

Is this an improvement? Is this due to the game being too easy prior?

Just curious...
 
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Daniel Corban
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I found this game to be boring once it was "solved" for me, so I don't care either way, but its obvious that allowing clues of "zero" make the game even more trivial. Why ruin it for yourself?
 
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Pierre Beri
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Basically, you must state a characteristic (1 of 5 colours, 1 of 5 values) and show someone the corresponding cards in their hand. If they have none of that characteristic, you just show no cards. Plus, as mentioned above, Antoine has officially said this is allowed. And it may be quite useful sometimes.
 
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Daniel Fish
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Actually, this is apparently what Antoine said:

"Well, the official rule don't forbid it, so go ahead
In fact we rarely never used the "0" move

Antoine"

So it sounds like he doesn't feel strongly one way or the other.

I'm supposing the reason R&R disallowed it was because you could use a cheating system where "you have no reds" means "play your rightmost card."
But if you're going to use such a system, why play the game?

I have the R&R rules, so I guess I'm going to stick to them (no negative clues) as Antoine advised.

 
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Steve Wardell
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thefishman wrote:
Actually, this is apparently what Antoine said:

"Well, the official rule don't forbid it, so go ahead
In fact we rarely never used the "0" move

Antoine"

So it sounds like he doesn't feel strongly one way or the other.

I'm supposing the reason R&R disallowed it was because you could use a cheating system where "you have no reds" means "play your rightmost card."
But if you're going to use such a system, why play the game?

I have the R&R rules, so I guess I'm going to stick to them (no negative clues) as Antoine advised.



That seems like a problem with the convention, not a problem with negative hints. Couldn't you do the same thing with regular clues? Something like a green or 1 clue means play your first card, a blue or 2 clue means play your second card, etc.
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Sean McCarthy
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Khedron wrote:
thefishman wrote:
Actually, this is apparently what Antoine said:

"Well, the official rule don't forbid it, so go ahead
In fact we rarely never used the "0" move

Antoine"

So it sounds like he doesn't feel strongly one way or the other.

I'm supposing the reason R&R disallowed it was because you could use a cheating system where "you have no reds" means "play your rightmost card."
But if you're going to use such a system, why play the game?

I have the R&R rules, so I guess I'm going to stick to them (no negative clues) as Antoine advised.



That seems like a problem with the convention, not a problem with negative hints. Couldn't you do the same thing with regular clues? Something like a green or 1 clue means play your first card, a blue or 2 clue means play your second card, etc.


Negative clues allowed means all clues are always available. So you can set up a code and it always works.

You can try doing it without negative clues, but I think you'll find it's nomore effective than advanced natural clues.
 
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Shimabukuro S
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I have a similar question. I played the game yesterday and when happened to someone to have a card that could be played right away and it was the only type of card on the hand, we gave clues like you point to the card and say "This is 'the' 3" and if that card wasn't good to play, we went to "This is 'a' 3".

My question is the same: is it allowed?
 
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Daniel Corban
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It is a cooperative game and you can play how you wish. It is fairly clear that you are cheating yourselves by doing that. Some of the challenge comes from deducing whether you can play a card or not. To be blunt, I don't understand why a group of people would bother to play this game and then so obviously cheat in this fashion.

There will always be conventions, but I feel they are not harmful if they are based in logic. For example, anyone can logically deduce that cards held in hand for several rounds with no clues to their identity being given are cards of no concern; they can be safely discarded, otherwise someone would have given "warning". From this we know that, since other players also understand this, "old" cards are those most likely to be discarded, and should therefore be given clues. This inherently creates a convention. Even with no discussion amongst players, they could each independently discover this, and use it to their advantage.

There is no path of logic which would lead anyone to independently discover an association between "a" and "the". It is an arbitrary convention. You may as well just straight up say what you mean instead of using codewords.
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Soda Popinski
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Hmm. I played this for the first time yesterday (fun!).

We play a lot of coop games, and some people found it VERY hard noT to give away more information than the 3 clues mentioned in the rules. We are used to coming up with a strategy by discussing the game state together. This game totally flips it on its head.

I really think the fun of this game is to come up with conventions WITHIN the rules. The first convention for us came naturally: If i tell you "these two cards are 1:s" then you are probably safe playing one of them.
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Simon Lundström
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soda_popinski wrote:
I really think the fun of this game is to come up with conventions WITHIN the rules. The first convention for us came naturally naturally: If i tell you "these two cards are 1:s" then you are probably safe playing one of them.


And in our group it automatically means you can play both, unless someone points out the opposite until it's your turn again.
 
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dcorban wrote:
It is a cooperative game and you can play how you wish. It is fairly clear that you are cheating yourselves by doing that. Some of the challenge comes from deducing whether you can play a card or not. To be blunt, I don't understand why a group of people would bother to play this game and then so obviously cheat in this fashion.

There will always be conventions, but I feel they are not harmful if they are based in logic. For example, anyone can logically deduce that cards held in hand for several rounds with no clues to their identity being given are cards of no concern; they can be safely discarded, otherwise someone would have given "warning". From this we know that, since other players also understand this, "old" cards are those most likely to be discarded, and should therefore be given clues. This inherently creates a convention. Even with no discussion amongst players, they could each independently discover this, and use it to their advantage.

There is no path of logic which would lead anyone to independently discover an association between "a" and "the". It is an arbitrary convention. You may as well just straight up say what you mean instead of using codewords.


So, if I always refer to cards in ascending order when I give clues and I never tell anyone about it, but someone realizes that I do that on their own is it cheating? It's logical to me to refer to cards in ascending order, there's no rule that dictates how you must refer to the cards only that you refer to all of them.

What about Bridge? Are the players cheating by communicating key points about their hands through the use of specific bidding conventions?

No matter how you answer these questions my opinion is this. You didn't design the game, you didn't refer to the actual rules of the game in making your declarations about cheating, and you're opinion is just that, an opinion. You're welcome to it, but it's offensive to me. You could have accomplished the same thing without being offensive by simply asserting that the game is more difficult and satisfying without the use of such implied dialogue. Which may very well be true, but it's far more civil than calling people you've never met cheats.
 
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Malachi Brown
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Vox_Dargard wrote:
So, if I always refer to cards in ascending order when I give clues and I never tell anyone about it, but someone realizes that I do that on their own is it cheating? It's logical to me to refer to cards in ascending order, there's no rule that dictates how you must refer to the cards only that you refer to all of them.

You are correct that it is somewhat logical to identify the cards in order. However, I think it oversteps the bounds of the rules because they state that a hint can be in the form of the color of a set of cards or the number of a set of cards. If you are pointing out the cards in numerical order when you give a color clue, you are providing a hint to both the color and the number.
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Travis Archer
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We have a player in our group who does this constantly, despite us telling him that it's cheating.

So whenever he does I deliberately misinterpret the extra information and play the wrong card. He does it far less frequently now.
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Andrew E
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He should start emphasizing the wrong card when giving you clues so you play the right one.

It would still be cheating, but it would be creative cheating.
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