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Subject: Early Prestige Building rss

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Seth Jaffee
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I toyed with the idea of building an early Prestige building in one of 2 games I played on Monday... and failed miserably in the execution. i think this could be a valid strategy, if only I could impliment it better. here's what I did and why I failed - I'd like to hear from anyone who's used this strategy to good effect, or has an idea of how to try it.

My plan was to try and build a Prestige building before the Gold Mine, and have that building be one of the 2 that give you income - so as not to lose out on that. We were playing a 3 player game, and turn 1 someone build the WW building. This is when I went ahead and decided to go with my plan, as I wanted the BBBGG building which would catapult me to 2 income.

I was player 3, and I placed on the Gray cube in turns 1 and 2. I did not build in the castle. On the down side, I was not able to get any purple, as the CC/F building was not built, and someone always went on the C/F space before I got a turn.

I really must place a worker to change the work order more often.

In turn 2 an opponent built the Mason, so in turn 3 I used it. I decided to build the Bank (? the 'buy gold for money' one). I had placed on the $3 income space a lot, and I had plenty of money while my opponnts were broke. The plan was to buy some gold, then bulldoze the Bank to get a residence. This way I'd be the only player with Gold for a while, and before long I could build my WWWGG building for $2 income.

Alas, without a purple cube, I could not build the Lawyer and create a residence. On turn 3 or so I placed in the second carpenter as well as the 'buy a cube for $2' space in order to get the lawyer in play, which I finally did. The following turns though, an opponent jumped right into the lawyer right away. 2 turns later when I finally did bulldoze the Bank, my opponent had already bought a gold as well. My plan was not going as smoothly as I'd like.

My biggest problem was probably that I broke myself the turn after building the bank by spending $5 there. Sure, I had 2 gold, but I had no money left. My other problem was that I had decided at the beginning of the game to try the Cube favor track, to see if I could make use of the cubes. I was initially going to bulldoze the resources and try to use the flexibility of the cube track to stay afloat. However, without going for favors in the castle, this strategy was doomed from the start - although none of the Gray production buildings were built until after the gold mine...

In the end, I did build 1 Prestige building - it was about 2 turns before the game was over. Not early enough to matter. I set up to build anotehr Prestige building on the penultimate turn, however I made a huge mistake in that I didn't have another Residence, and instead of placing on the Lawyer first (like I had planned), I jumped ahead and placed on the architect. Oops! So I switched gears and set up to send 2 batches to the castle so I could use the last turn to build a Residence and the game end favor to build the Prestige building. That somehow didn't work out either because I managed to leave myself 1 purple cube short.

So all in all it was a miserable failure. I tried to do too many things at once, and I did a terrible job of managing money as well. However, the idea of building an early prestige building still appeals to me.

I'll try again and let you know how it goes... maybe in 2 player it will work better!
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Sean McCarthy
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One question: what would be the point?
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Two green buildings gives the same income as one green and then converting it to the hotel. And its way easier.Beter to make two green buildings if you want more income, and build a prestige later.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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Alexfrog wrote:
Two green buildings gives the same income as one green and then converting it to the hotel. And its way easier.Beter to make two green buildings if you want more income, and build a prestige later.

The point wouldn't be so much to increase income as to score big points without damaging your income, and without putting out stuff your opponents can use like production buildings. I suppose what I'd really like to do is get an early Hotel or whatever, then bulldoze the Architect so that I'm the only one who got a point jump from a prestige building.

I suppose that's not too spectacular now that I think about it.

Additionally, one could get another Residence IN ADDITION to the Hotel - so in that way a Hotel could really increase your income. Which you could then use to buy VPs at the Church or whatever.
 
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whistler
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I suppose what I'd really like to do is get an early Hotel or whatever, then bulldoze the Architect so that I'm the only one who got a point jump from a prestige building.

If I were one of your opponents, I'd probably follow that by rebuilding the architect so that your advantage no longer seems as strong.
 
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Jeff Bridgham
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sedjtroll wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Two green buildings gives the same income as one green and then converting it to the hotel. And its way easier.Beter to make two green buildings if you want more income, and build a prestige later.

The point wouldn't be so much to increase income as to score big points without damaging your income, and without putting out stuff your opponents can use like production buildings. I suppose what I'd really like to do is get an early Hotel or whatever, then bulldoze the Architect so that I'm the only one who got a point jump from a prestige building.

I suppose that's not too spectacular now that I think about it.

Additionally, one could get another Residence IN ADDITION to the Hotel - so in that way a Hotel could really increase your income. Which you could then use to buy VPs at the Church or whatever.


Sounds pretty festive!

I doubt that it is a good winning strategy but it sounds fun! :-)
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Tim Seitz
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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sedjtroll wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Two green buildings gives the same income as one green and then converting it to the hotel. And its way easier.Beter to make two green buildings if you want more income, and build a prestige later.

The point wouldn't be so much to increase income as to score big points without damaging your income, and without putting out stuff your opponents can use like production buildings. I suppose what I'd really like to do is get an early Hotel or whatever, then bulldoze the Architect so that I'm the only one who got a point jump from a prestige building.

I suppose that's not too spectacular now that I think about it.

Additionally, one could get another Residence IN ADDITION to the Hotel - so in that way a Hotel could really increase your income. Which you could then use to buy VPs at the Church or whatever.


The hotel is not really a good idea.

Yea, it's worth 2 coin on the surface, but it loses you out on the 1 coin from the residence. So in effect, you are taking an expensive action to raise your income by 1 coin.

The "when" for earning points has no bearing on the final score, so there's no reason to try and "build an early lead," exciting as it may be. If anything, it would unnecessarily make you a target for the other players.

If you want to really boost your income, build another residence. It gives you the same income boost as the hotel, for a lot less I might add, and it creates additional options for you to build more prestige buildings later in the game.

BTW, the prestige buildings you really want to build are the ones that give you favors. If you are doing the right thing on your favor tracks, you can score some major points in a single turn by dropping some prestige buildings and getting a lot of favors that way.

Something to shoot for: building 4 prestige buildings and getting 3 5-VP favors in one single turn. You easily shoot from last to first. That's MUCH more fun!
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Dan Freedman
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I've also been thinking about this strategy and how to make it work. It's fun to try to explore new options that seem bad and make them good. I look at the Hotel/Library and ask "Under what circumstances would I build these?" Probably the answer is "never" or "when I can't build anything that gets me more VPs or favors". But still, I understand where you are coming from....there should be an optimal play for it since it is included in the game.

It would be hard to come up with.

1st turn: Get cloth (always tough to do) or stable to be 1st
2nd turn: Carpenter (lawyer...because no one else is going to build it) & stable to 1st
3rd turn: Get more cloth, maybe lawyer (for residence)
4th turn - 6th: Concentrate on cubes and maybe build Alchemist
6-8th: Concentrate on gold mine or alchemist
Build Hotel!

That's a lot of work to get there. But you may be able to get away without taking any money favors and concentrate solely on VPs. And by the same token, you want a fast game if you are not on the building track. By not building out a bunch of residences there are that many more cubes available (from neutrals) which usually make the game end sooner (due to more castle building). But others will probably build over them when they take lawyer so it breaks even there.

I'd like to see someone win with this. But I imagine in practice, I couldn't make myself even try it. It feels too much like throwing resources in the trash can. Maybe next time I teach some new players, I'll do it to keep the game close. I'll sprint out to a lead by building the hotel. They will catch me and win..making them like the game and want to play more often.
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Mike K
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For me, going for Prestige buildings in Caylus is akin to going for blue buildings in St. Pete: doing it too early (while neglecting other needed resources) will usually fail.

If you have the resources to get the Prestige building so early (esp. before the start of the third round, as you need the architect before then), you probably have better alternatives (more castle builds, which give more favors; more buildings in the game; more resources in general for setting up the endgame). As was mentioned above, the extra coin isn't worth the effort.

I do like the hotel (with its 2-coin payment) when I'm not going for the point track (preferably with at least 4 players; any less, and you more or less need the point track in conjunction with either money or building); if I do get it, I do so early on in the third stage: early enough to get some advantage with the coin, but after I've handled other concerns.
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Brandon Tibbetts
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The idea of grabbing an early gold (via early alchemist or bank) and getting an early prestige with it that gives you an income advantage sounds like an enticing strategy.

It saddens me to discover that the prestige buildings that seem to be designed for this strategy are simply too weak and costly to be effective.

What if the library gave $2 and cost 1 less wood to build?
What if the hotel gave $3 and cost 1 less rock to build?
What if the hotel gave $3, cost 1 less rock and 1 less gold to build?

Edit (shown above): I think now both buildings should require only 1 gold to be effective for the coin rush strategy - otherwise it will be too difficult and/or too costly to get them out early enough. Maybe they should be the worth the same amount of points. So here is what I'm thinking:

Library (gold/wood/wood) 7 points +$2
Hotel (gold/rock/rock) 7 points +$3


Curious to know how others think these mods would play and if they would improve the game. Personally I don't like it that these buildings are only seen as "dregs" to be built at the end when other buildings are taken - in which case the bonus coinage is practically irrelevant. I'd rather see them as low cost, low points buildings that are built early specifically for the income advantage.

I'm especially curious to know (if I may be so lucky) what William Attia has to say about how these buildings developed during playtesting and what their intended purpose is.
 
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