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Subject: Wargame including the Monte Cassino battle? rss

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Jim P.
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I've been reading up on the 1943 Monte Cassino battle(s) and wondering if there is a wargame that includes this bit of history. Does anyone know of one?
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Roger Hobden
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Thunder at Cassino

Panzer Grenadier: Cassino '44, Gateway to Rome

The Battle for Cassino: Assaulting the Gustav Line, 1944

Anzio/Cassino

Carnage at Cassino

Fortress Cassino: The Road to Rome

Cassino

Cassino 44
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Mike Szarka
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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I think the hobby is still waiting for the definitive treatment.
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Jim P.
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Thank you, Roger for a very thorough answer! The Critical Hit ASL title and the Avalon Hill title both look pretty good...and the Vae Victus title Cassino 44 while a smaller scale, is probably pretty easy to get.

Much Obliged.
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Russ Williams
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For future reference, those were all easily found by simply searching Cassino in the Search bar.

There are probably other less obvious ones which don't have Cassino in the title...
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Wolfgang Kunz
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InvisibleRobots wrote:
Thank you, Roger for a very thorough answer! The Critical Hit ASL title and the Avalon Hill title both look pretty good...and the Vae Victus title Cassino 44 while a smaller scale, is probably pretty easy to get.

Much Obliged.
Don't dismiss the Panzer Grenadier treatment - it is a beautiful game if you like the PG system or a willing to try it. I never looked into the system and have no interest in getting deeper into it

EXCEPT

for Cassino and Kursk.
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Joshua Gottesman
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Cassino uses a historical (and, IMO, beautiful) map of the area, while Kursk uses generic maps. Cassino also covers historical scenarios and has a campaign game (maybe 2, I haven't looked at it in a while). If you want tactical, I think its a great option.

I've played the Battle Command one, its a fairly simplistic treatment, and not a bad game. If you like HUGE counters, it definitely has them (not a knock on them by any means).
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Robert Stuart
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Alphawolf wrote:
InvisibleRobots wrote:
Thank you, Roger for a very thorough answer! The Critical Hit ASL title and the Avalon Hill title both look pretty good...and the Vae Victus title Cassino 44 while a smaller scale, is probably pretty easy to get.

Much Obliged.
Don't dismiss the Panzer Grenadier treatment - it is a beautiful game if you like the PG system or a willing to try it. I never looked into the system and have no interest in getting deeper into it

EXCEPT

for Cassino and Kursk.
My two favorite Panzer Grenadier games are Elsenborn Ridge and Cassino. The PG treatment of Cassino is excellent, in my view. It's missing only a VASSAL module to make it complete...
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Roger Hobden
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I was shocked to discover that there is no game titled "Operation Diadem".

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June Hwang Wah
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Avalon Hill's Thunder at Cassino is a very good game. Lengthy, but well able to complete in a long gaming day.
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Michael Lucey
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mcszarka wrote:
I think the hobby is still waiting for the definitive treatment.
Compared to the volume of games on other WW2 battles I would agree. The Salerno landings have had even less treatment so something about the Italian theater has not drawn much interest outside some generic hex and counter offerings, mainly from the 80's.
I was underwhelmed (and so was the average BGG'er) by the AH game Thunder at Cassino and that is what 25 years old? The above list appears to be mainly tactical level I believe so really not much there for the entire battle.
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Jim P.
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Alphawolf wrote:
InvisibleRobots wrote:
Thank you, Roger for a very thorough answer! The Critical Hit ASL title and the Avalon Hill title both look pretty good...and the Vae Victus title Cassino 44 while a smaller scale, is probably pretty easy to get.

Much Obliged.
Don't dismiss the Panzer Grenadier treatment - it is a beautiful game if you like the PG system or a willing to try it. I never looked into the system and have no interest in getting deeper into it

EXCEPT

for Cassino and Kursk.
Thanks for the advice, Wolfgang; I have stayed away from the PG system so far only because, as I'm sure you know, new wargame systems are like a loose thread on a sweater. It is sometimes hard to stop pulling!

I'll take a close look at it though. It was a brutal battle and is not discussed often, I guess because it was right before Normandy...and also perhaps because the allied forces blew up a 6th century monastery which hindsight indicates wasn't necessary. :-( Heck of a fight, though.
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Tyler
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bob_santafe wrote:

My two favorite Panzer Grenadier games are Elsenborn Ridge and Cassino. The PG treatment of Cassino is excellent, in my view. It's missing only a VASSAL module to make it oomplete...
PG is a tactical system, right? How's it compare to some of its competitors? I'm very familiar with LnL and Combat Commander, and know enough about ASL to be afraid of it.
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Jim P.
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"A Truth thats told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent It is right it should be so Man was made for Joy & Woe And when this we rightly know Thro the World we safely go Joy & Woe are woven fine A Clothing for the soul divine ."
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whisky_bear wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:

My two favorite Panzer Grenadier games are Elsenborn Ridge and Cassino. The PG treatment of Cassino is excellent, in my view. It's missing only a VASSAL module to make it oomplete...
PG is a tactical system, right? How's it compare to some of its competitors? I'm very familiar with LnL and Combat Commander, and know enough about ASL to be afraid of it.
I've never played a PG game, but take a look at this map from their title Saipan 1944. If you look at my collection, you will notice map artwork isn't a big requirement for me to make a purchase, but I'd try ANY wargame, good or otherwise, on a map like this once!



Avalanche Press also has a game based on the battle for Malaya which I have always been interested in -- that is not a well covered conflict. I guess I'll call Games Plus and see if they have it and the Cassino '44 title. Thank you for the recommendations, bob_santafe and TankBoy.
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Captain Nemo
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Avalon Hill's Thunder at Cassino is a very good game.
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Joshua Gottesman
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The same guy who did the Saipan maps did the Cassino maps. He's doing most of their maps now.

Its
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and he's ridiculously talented.
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russ wrote:
For future reference, those were all easily found by simply searching Cassino in the Search bar.

There are probably other less obvious ones which don't have Cassino in the title...
I kept searching for Casino, and all I found were Texas Hold'em games.
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Kristopher
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I jotted it down in my Risk campaign book. I always used to do that so I could replay my moments of glory over a glass of brandy in the sleeping quarters. --Arnold J. Rimmer--
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Wow, that's a GORGEOUS map!
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whisky_bear wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:

My two favorite Panzer Grenadier games are Elsenborn Ridge and Cassino. The PG treatment of Cassino is excellent, in my view. It's missing only a VASSAL module to make it oomplete...
PG is a tactical system, right? How's it compare to some of its competitors? I'm very familiar with LnL and Combat Commander, and know enough about ASL to be afraid of it.
It is platoon level, where the others are squad level. I had about 5 games in the series, but traded them off because AVP wouldn't budge on their anti-Vassal stance (and I guess they have loosened up since then, but I'm done with them).

It's a pretty good game, but if you ask me, for small unit action, Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles blows it away.
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Joshua Gottesman
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TankBoy wrote:
Joshuaaaaaa wrote:
The same guy who did the Saipan maps did the Cassino maps. He's doing most of their maps now.

Its
Guy Riessen
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and he's ridiculously talented.
Umm, I believe this is incorrect. Dave Murray made the maps as well for Cassino '44.
You know what? I think you're correct and I also think I've made this error before. Sorry, Dave! Guy still does great work tho.
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Mike Szarka
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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Scoobysnacks wrote:
mcszarka wrote:
I think the hobby is still waiting for the definitive treatment.
Compared to the volume of games on other WW2 battles I would agree. The Salerno landings have had even less treatment so something about the Italian theater has not drawn much interest outside some generic hex and counter offerings, mainly from the 80's.
I was underwhelmed (and so was the average BGG'er) by the AH game Thunder at Cassino and that is what 25 years old? The above list appears to be mainly tactical level I believe so really not much there for the entire battle.
With the exception of Sicily, theere is an incomprehensible lack of decent operational and strategic level games on the Italian campaign. Considering how much longer it lasted than the Allied liberation of France, and how bitterly every inch of ground was contested, the lack of interest by designers and publishers mystifies me.
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Roger Hobden
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I agree.

You would think that five months of trying to break through the Gustav Line would attract SOME kind of attention on the part of wargame designers.

It was the WW I of WW II.

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Tyler
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Mallet wrote:
I agree.

You would think that five months of trying to break through the Gustav Line would attract SOME kind of attention on the part of wargame designers.

It was the WW I of WW II.

And with more amphibious landings than the entire Eastern front!
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hammurabi70 wrote:
Avalon Hill's Thunder at Cassino is a very good game.
It helps to know why.
 
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Mallet wrote:
You would think that five months of trying to break through the Gustav Line would attract SOME kind of attention on the part of wargame designers.
Yep, but it's the sort of attention that makes them cross the road to stay as far away as possible. It's the sort of campaign that is hardest to get right and most boring to play if you do get it right.

Quote:
It was the WW I of WW II.
There's your answer in a nutshell. With so much WWII around in WWII, why would anyone want to tackle the WWI part?
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