True Blue Jon
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In these threads, we discuss the text and what we think of it. This discussion is open to everyone. I'm using the NIV translation.

Luke 20

1 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts and proclaiming the good news, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him. 2 "Tell us by what authority you are doing these things," they said. "Who gave you this authority?"

3 He replied, "I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?"

5 They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Why didn't you believe him?' 6 But if we say, 'Of human origin,' all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet."

7 So they answered, "We don't know where it was from."

8 Jesus said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things."

9 He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12 He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.

13 "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'

14 "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."

When the people heard this, they said, "God forbid!"

17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

"'The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."

19 The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 "Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?"

"Caesar's," they replied.

25 He said to them, "Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 "Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, "Well said, teacher!" 40 And no one dared to ask him any more questions.

41 Then Jesus said to them, "Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:

"'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."'
44 David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46 "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."
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Brian Homan
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This passage is a great warning against hypocrisy. The chief priests and religious rulers were being called out by Christ for rejecting the one whom God sent. They were looking for the Messiah, but did not recognize Him when He came because they were more concerned with power and authority then they were with serving and loving God.
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Agent J
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I think the Messiah they were looking for was supposed to be saying, "Wow, you guys are so holy. I'm not really even needed here. How about you guys just keep the power for me, you're doing a great job of it!"
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Daniel Eig
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Quote:
1 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts...the elders, came up to him. 2 "Tell us by what authority you are doing these things," they said. "Who gave you this authority?"

3 He replied, "I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?"

5 They discussed it among themselves and said,..."We don't know where it was from."

8 Jesus said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things."


Apparently Jesus doesn't know either. Its an honest answer, have to appreciate that.

Quote:
14 "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."


What if they kill the owner? They are the owner, following the line of thought. Inadvertently, Jesus is advocating the overthrow of God Himself.

Quote:
17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

"'The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."


Psalms 118:20
This is the Lord's gate; the righteous will enter therein.
I shall thank You because You answered me, and You were my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected became a cornerstone.
23. This was from the Lord; it is wondrous in our eyes.

The answer I would expect them to give, in context, is that Israel is the stone that the builders rejected. The Lord has redeemed the nation of Israel from exile, and let them rebuild the Temple.

Quote:
Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
...
24 "Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
25 He said to them, "Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."


Do not defy the government on earthly matters. But where is the line?
Quote:

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question... at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.


So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.
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Daniel Eig
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Another thought:
Quote:

41 Then Jesus said to them, "Why is it said that the Messiah is the son of David? 42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:

"'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."'

44 David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"


Looking at the Hebrew, it is not Lord and Lord. It is Lord and lord.
It is "the name of God" (Adonai, or LORD in English, as we politely do not say His name) and lord, small l.

I see it translated elsewhere as follows - which is less confusing as it substitutes a synonym to make it more clear.
Quote:
Of David a psalm. The word of the LORD to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."


Rashi interprets this not as referring to the Messiah, but to Abraham: whom the world called “my master,” as it is written (Gen. 23: 6): “Hearken to us, my master.”
The enemies here being ones of the past - Abraham's, and not ones of the future.
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Rich Charters
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Here are a few observations about these verses:

quozl wrote:
2 "Tell us by what authority you are doing these things," they said. "Who gave you this authority?"

3 He replied, "I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?"
Interesting question. It had the added value of stopping the trap they were trying to set for him, but the issue of authority is also an important question to consider. This is an important element to the separation of Church and State as well. The government gets it's power from the people, religion takes it's power from God. Without a belief in God, it's difficult to comprehend the concept that a government doesn't have the power to limit religion because it is generated from a different source. If you think of religion as simply an organization of people like a government, then you miss the fundamental difference between religion and other organizations.

quozl wrote:
20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 "Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?"

"Caesar's," they replied.

25 He said to them, "Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Again, Jesus discusses the separation of church and state: "Let the government worry about it's stuff and religion worry about it's stuff." He could have followed-up by teaching that humans are made in the image of God. So when we give to God what is God's it includes ourself. I suppose this is why Paul (in Romans 12:1) urges us to give ourselves as a living sacrifice. In other words, we need to be prepared to sacrifice all for God.

quozl wrote:
45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46 "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."
Appently, Jesus had the same disdain of many religions that many on RSP have....but for a different reason. He didn't deny divine authority, he came to proclaim it.....but he saw others mis-use the concept of divine authority for their own reasons and to get benefits. The message he taught was 'lose yourself for my sake' not use religion to puff yourself up.



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Brian Homan
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dtolman wrote:
Quote:
1 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts...the elders, came up to him. 2 "Tell us by what authority you are doing these things," they said. "Who gave you this authority?"

3 He replied, "I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John's baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?"

5 They discussed it among themselves and said,..."We don't know where it was from."

8 Jesus said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things."


Apparently Jesus doesn't know either. Its an honest answer, have to appreciate that.


Or maybe he was not giving the rulers the satisfaction they were looking for. Jesus spoke at length about the authority given to Him by the Father, but He did not feel the need to justify himself to these guys.

Quote:
14 "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others."


dtolman wrote:
What if they kill the owner? They are the owner, following the line of thought. Inadvertently, Jesus is advocating the overthrow of God Himself.


Actually, He is telling the story of the religious leaders and how they killed the prophets that came before Him, and were now even plotting to kill the Son of God himself.

Quote:
17 Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

"'The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed."


dtolman wrote:
Psalms 118:20
This is the Lord's gate; the righteous will enter therein.
I shall thank You because You answered me, and You were my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected became a cornerstone.
23. This was from the Lord; it is wondrous in our eyes.

The answer I would expect them to give, in context, is that Israel is the stone that the builders rejected. The Lord has redeemed the nation of Israel from exile, and let them rebuild the Temple.


In context (reading the whole Psalm) I do not think this verse means what you think it means. David is speaking of his salvation through Christ.

Quote:
Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
...
24 "Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
25 He said to them, "Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."


dtolman wrote:
Do not defy the government on earthly matters. But where is the line?


Give to Caesar what is Caersar's (pay your taxes) and to God what is God's (pay your tithes and offerings).

Quote:

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question... at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.


dtolman wrote:
So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.


That's a difficult question. We know there are no marriages in Heaven, but the hard part for us is why? The only thing I can think of is that marriage has a purpose here on earth that will not exist in Heaven. Otherwise, those folks who married and were widowed several times would have some really complicated relationships there.
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Daniel Eig
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bmhoman1 wrote:

dtolman wrote:
What if they kill the owner? They are the owner, following the line of thought. Inadvertently, Jesus is advocating the overthrow of God Himself.


Actually, He is telling the story of the religious leaders and how they killed the prophets that came before Him, and were now even plotting to kill the Son of God himself.


I'm aware of the point of the parable. He mentions that the owner will come and kill them next, and ends the parable there. Just pointing out that perhaps if he let the parable's scenario continue a bit longer, the result could be... interesting.

bmhoman1 wrote:

dtolman wrote:
Psalms 118:20
This is the Lord's gate; the righteous will enter therein.
I shall thank You because You answered me, and You were my salvation.
The stone that the builders rejected became a cornerstone.
23. This was from the Lord; it is wondrous in our eyes.

The answer I would expect them to give, in context, is that Israel is the stone that the builders rejected. The Lord has redeemed the nation of Israel from exile, and let them rebuild the Temple.


In context (reading the whole Psalm) I do not think this verse means what you think it means. David is speaking of his salvation through Christ.


That is a meaning given to it in retrospect. And not universally agreed upon. Jews are not reciting verses from this in prayer to sneakily praise Jesus, for example.

Quite frankly, the plain meaning is that is an ode to the power of God in delivering victory over mortal enemies who surround and threaten defeat. Who is being delivered is not mentioned explicitly.

Whether the victory was in the past, present, or future - whether the victor was Abraham, Israel, David, the Annointed One to come in David's future, or your buddy Frank two blocks over who is the assistant manager of the 7-11 - is entirely up to the reader. The text does not offer any definitive interpretation itself.

bmhoman1 wrote:

dtolman wrote:
Do not defy the government on earthly matters. But where is the line?


Give to Caesar what is Caersar's (pay your taxes) and to God what is God's (pay your tithes and offerings).


So this only involves taxes and matters financial? Is any other temporal matter covered by this?


bmhoman1 wrote:

dtolman wrote:
So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.


That's a difficult question. We know there are no marriages in Heaven, but the hard part for us is why? The only thing I can think of is that marriage has a purpose here on earth that will not exist in Heaven. Otherwise, those folks who married and were widowed several times would have some really complicated relationships there.


Amusingly, this appears to be a difference between Christians and Jews in the view of Heaven. While there is no definitive statement in Judaism regarding this matter (or in the nature of the afterlife in general), my understanding is that most scholars believe there will be marriage in the World to Come, and perhaps even...sex (why would God restore bodies without giving them purpose one Rabbi mused?).
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bmhoman1 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
Quote:

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question... at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.


So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.


That's a difficult question. We know there are no marriages in Heaven, but the hard part for us is why? The only thing I can think of is that marriage has a purpose here on earth that will not exist in Heaven. Otherwise, those folks who married and were widowed several times would have some really complicated relationships there.


Significantly, Jesus didn't actually say the woman and her seven husbands would become angels in heaven after being resurrected, only that they would be "like the angels" after their resurrection. In heaven, it would seem understandable nobody is married as there likely would be no purpose to such arrangements there(see Genesis for an account of angels having to come down to earth to take human wives). However, if those ones were instead resurrected to life back on earth, the Sadducees' question would seem to provoke a greater difficulty for Jesus to answer, so that is probably what they had in mind, since it is stated they did not believe in any such resurrection.
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Junior McSpiffy
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dtolman wrote:

Quote:

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question... at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.


So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.


The easy solution is to not get married "'til death do us part" but "for time and all eternity." The edict only states when the marriages may be performed, not the duration they are able to last.
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Daniel Eig
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GameCrossing wrote:

The easy solution is to not get married "'til death do us part" but "for time and all eternity." The edict only states when the marriages may be performed, not the duration they are able to last.


All eternity seems like a pretty big commitment for marriage, seeing how many don't even make it through a single lifetime.

Though... Jewish marriages (which is what we're speaking of), are understood to be contracts* - which can be dissolved (traditionally by the man). So even if you did do it for eternity, I suppose they could always get a divorce in the World To Come.

*Which don't actually stipulate a formal Til Death Do Us Part ending. Its left open ended.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
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GameCrossing wrote:
dtolman wrote:

Quote:

27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question... at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.


So uh... what if we like marriage? Heaven may be heaven, but it may not be the paradise we want. At least here.


The easy solution is to not get married "'til death do us part" but "for time and all eternity." The edict only states when the marriages may be performed, not the duration they are able to last.


It's pretty clear that there is no continuing of marriages in heaven, either, based on the story of the 7 brothers or however many brothers it was.
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